quote:

Originally posted by Tim c cook:
Pulling long hills with a load my cummins gets up to around 1100 deg f measured just behind the turbo.

RE: Exhaust Fuel Heat Exchanger- For the purpose of flashing off water, circulating oil to raise tank temprature, for???

Remember we are not talking how hot the exhaust is but how hot the oil would get AFTER exhaust heat/fuel exchanger does its thing. If you can put a temp gauge on it then shouln't one of the electirc switch guru's (I know ya'll lurk here ) be able to set up a system to controll oil heat by pumping oil at high speeds thru the exhaust heat exchanger when the exhaust is super hot and slow it down when the exhaust is not so hot. Turn off the pump when it is too hot to use at all.

Just curious if you have a fuel line heater?
Wonder where a guy could get something like that?
Also, filter heater from?
Sounds like 50/50 is good for all purpose.

Exhaust heat -- It changes a lot and fast. Even on flat ground with only the truck (no load) my exhaust runs around 650 deg +/_ 50 deg, slight hills or headwinds bump it up to 750 deg f., downhills drop it to 350-400 deg.

I suspect this heat could be used but hot radiator water is just a lot simpler and easier.

Electrical heat is a lot easier to control and can create these same high temps (even way higher), I have been melting all sorts of insulation doing experiments with nichrome wire heaters lately (filter heaters, water flasher etc.).

Finding an engergy effiencient way to heat the WVO is what I am looking for (waste heat or solar ) . Using electricity for heaters or vacuum pumps is something I would prefer not to do .

here in Australia I am just going to run a bit of polyethylene pipe over the corrugated Iron roof and allow the hot oil to splash over a spoon (in sunlight if possible) on return to the drum... In cold America you may wish to use a WVO or diesel heater to do the same...

Hi all.... geeze - got my message erased, I think... starting over...

I have Questions abt de-watering. It seems there is general agreement that 'free' water should be allowed to settle out to the bottom of your storage tank. It is not as clear what the consensus is about removing dissolved/emulsified water which remains encapsulated within the oil... (I'm getting the term "emulsified" from a diesel fuel filter website which has one filter that does remove emulsified water, and one which does not... in DIESEL fuel... I read here that they don't work with SVO??) here is that website:

http://www.maesco.com/products/racor/r_funnel/r_funnel.html

Questions:

1. is there agreement about whether or not to remove the suspended/emulsified water, and if so... HOW do you do it??? is there general agreement that methanol or isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) is a good additive???

2. Is there general agreement that bubble-washing WVO to balance the PH is a good idea, and how does that affect the de-watering process? Will it add to the "problem" of suspended/emulsified water in the oil??

3. I have been told to use a bactericide as an additive to prevent whatever water remaining in the WVO from growing bacteria and ruining the engine... I haven't seen much talk of this... any comments?? could I use that in the bubble-washing phase, or should I add it the moment I collect the oil, or after the bubble-washing??? During AND after bubble-washing???

4. Somewhat unrelated: I plan to provide pre-filtered WVO to some of my neighbors who are converting their vehicles (hence the extra concern about the water issue)... so I'll have 100-200 gal in storage. I'm wondering how flamable this stuff is at basic room temperatures? I was thinking of having my storage barrels in the basement in Winter, 3-5 feet (or more) from the furnace pilot. I have used olive oil as a candle - in an open, heat-proof glass container or metal food can, with a cloth wick... which shows that it is able to burn if there's a wick and you place a match to it.... but it doesn't explode, just "wicks" up the wick to burn..... but... were a barrell to leak and spread across the floor to, say, 6 inches below the igniter for the natural gas furnace.... is there a problem there? I have the barrels outside currently, to use the sun to heat the oil before filtering, but in Winter I thought somewhere warmer would be better than the freezing temps we get here. Another choice would be the garage, which is unheated and large.

thanks everyone who contributes to this forum!
-DD

To answer your questions as best I can Amelia.

1. No there is not general agreement but I would say for a newbie that is unmechanically minded the Dana version of the picture is safest. that is first settle, filter and then remove all the water you can by heating the oil to 50degrees Centigrade (not farenheight) and them allowing it to cool and the water to settle out.

Of course you first test the oil by heating a small sample of it to 140-160 degrees Centigrade.. you may not have any in your oil.. I don't.

Methanol is not a good addative in regard to water... ethanol and iso propyl are better. I first dry the ethanol to less than 2% water and use a mix I call the GP mix.

blend of 80% WVO (very clean clear well settled Canola) 15% Kerosine and 5% Ethanol (methylated spirits AUS).

The thread is here

2. No its not the general consensus PH requires free water and we done want any. I wouldn't bubble wash you are just reintroducing water to the oil. I don't know of any long time blender that bubblewashes; its something the Biodieselers do though. I've done 20,000 kms on blend and oil in 4 months no probs.

3. No free water equals no bacteria which need a water interface somewhere in the system to survive. ethanol/isopropyl will help.

4. DON'T supply your neighbours, no if buts or maybes; you are outside mainsteam fuel with no quarantees and risks to the engine you feed. As a lawyer I say this to you; free advice from a lawyer is a rare and valuable thing, ignore it at risk of fortune and happiness.

By all means let them experiment for themselves but then they will becone competitors for the WVO in your area....

It is reasonably safe as it doesn't give off much volatile gas like dino fuel... which is why you usually carnt start on it pure.

Amelia, if you are thinking of adding isopropyl alcohol to the WVO to make the last of the water go into solution be careful not to use rubbing alcohol - it already contains water. Use industrial, 99% or better.

Regarding the flammability, the flashpoint of wvo is 330 degrees F, I believe. What this means is that you have to heat veggie that hot before it will even ignite in the presence of a flame or spark. Most combustibles need another 50 degrees or so to sustain a steady burning. What this means is yes it will burn but you'd have to really work at it.

Welcome to the greasy gang!

Todd

Ive read all six pages on dewatering and have a question - any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have a few 55 gallon drums of waste canola oil. Both are 3/4 full. All oil in the drums has been gravity cold filtered to less than 1 micron and sitting for between 4 and 5 weeks in a garage.

I think it is pretty water free, but want to heed advice and dewater anyway - I do not have an electricity source but have a camp stove hooked to a large propane bottle. My drums are the type with two small openings, not the ones with the removable lids. Question is:

If I add direct heat, is my goal to make any dissolved or suspended water and sub 1 micron particles drop to the bottom? or am I trying to drive water off as steam? If the later, I am not sure that the two holes are sufficient ventilation to prevent condensation on the underside of the top of thr lid...

Any suggestions? Thanks, Vap

Adding direct heat will create convection currents, stirring everything up and undoing the settling you've been doing for weeks. I suggest removing the settled junk on the bottom or taking the clean oil off the top first.

quote:

Originally posted by kav:
Ive read all six pages on dewatering and have a question - any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have a few 55 gallon drums of waste canola oil. Both are 3/4 full. All oil in the drums has been gravity cold filtered to less than 1 micron and sitting for between 4 and 5 weeks in a garage.

I think it is pretty water free, but want to heed advice and dewater anyway - I do not have an electricity source but have a camp stove hooked to a large propane bottle. My drums are the type with two small openings, not the ones with the removable lids. Question is:

If I add direct heat, is my goal to make any dissolved or suspended water and sub 1 micron particles drop to the bottom? or am I trying to drive water off as steam? If the later, I am not sure that the two holes are sufficient ventilation to prevent condensation on the underside of the top of thr lid...

Any suggestions? Thanks, Vap

Welcome to the forum kav.

Boilingoff water from wvo is very difficult requires special equipment and is energy intensive. If your drums of wvo are prefiltered, well settled, have been kept warm enough to be completely liquid, and have not been moved around (which tends to remix settled components I think (as suggests by Steve) that removing settled wvo from the top will give you the most water free wvo. Heting it from the bottom will (as Steve also says) remix the settled water due to the convection currents it creates.

I suggest you do a hot pan test to make certain you have little if any water in the wvo you eventually put in your tank.

The pan test.
Smear a finger of wvo accross a fry pan (cast iron preferred)as a temp check.

Keep the sample of wvo to be tested handy. Enough for 1/4"-3/8" thickness covering the bottom works best.
Heat the pan on high temp until the smear begins to really smoke then pour in the sample.

NOTE:
Do not pour in a sample with any visible water. If water droplets are visible no testing is needed. There is water present in your sample. Visible droplets of water will spatter hot oil out of the pan and may cause burns or fire.


Look closely at the bottom of the pan where the oil meets it. Are there very small bubbles forming. This indicates some suspended water. The number of bubbles indicates how much water is present in suspended form.

I usually accept a FEW bubbles myself. Lots of small bubbles is unacceptable to me. If crackling or popping is heard..way too much water is present.

Use you best judgment.
If the majority of the wvo in these drums shows signs of water consider setting up a dewatering unit.

New here, and very curious. I have also read all of this thread, and the question was asked about heating the oil for de-watering. The reply was sent that 50 Centigrade and left to cool was ok.
My question, how long should this oil be heated for, days? hours? Thank You in advance.

What happens if my oil is dark and I can't see the bottom of the pan through the oil? Will those small bubbles come to the top so I can see them?
Thanks,
Dave

I use a cast iron skillet and just a teaspoon of test WVO on the hot skillet
a small amount of oil shows water content just fine, in my experience
(there is an optimal temperature 'zone' that shows WVO water best - I recommend experimenting w/ different stove settings, different equipment until you find the combination that shows the water most plainly
on my stove the burner is at '6' and it takes 2-3 min to get up to temp
a little virgin canola is a good first test - I usually see a few small bubbles in it
make sure you have goood light and can see the surface of the oil and pan clearly
the rough cast iron seems to encourage bubble formation better than stainless or aluminum)

you will see anything from cratering w/ *zero* bubbles (this is what you want to shoot for) all the way up to audible crackling and spattering

just like Dana says, a few tiny bubbles - like really flat seltzer - may be acceptable
anything more, don't run it through your engine

one more thing I have discovered recently:
settling/dewatering containers get better with age
a zone of progressively more 'watery' WVO settles at the bottom and COLLECTS water from the oil above
it's almost a magnetic effect
and the longer it sits there settling the better it gets at dewatering
my tank was sitting in the hot sun all summer long and even in October (day temps maybe 70°, nights down to 40°) it was dewatering beautifully

(unfortunately, I didn't realize this, and recently moved my tank inside for the winter
had to drain it to do this, and so lost all those gallons of magic 'cream' WVO on the bottom
starting all over now)

good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:
Tony,

I though that too. But aparrently it is not that simple. When I asked a diesel tech he admitted he did not know exactly why water acted this way and fuel did not.

When I asked a local physics instructor the reason he asked what my background in physics was. I said college level...25 years ago...and he "explained" it had to do with the "special" properties of water compare to other liquids. When I asked him to elaborate he said "you don't have the background to understand it fully".

Which either meant I don't have the background or he didn't know the answer. I am still curious. Anyone know a phyicist?

I believe it has to do with water unable to be compressed. Essentially water cannot be compressed (@ 22,000 PSI water will compress less that 1,000th of an inch)

Ian

Here. This will solve water condensation issues....http://www.starbrite.com/whatsnew/2004%20BoatUS%20Ad%20(Startron).PDF

Highly recommended...uses enzymes ...read tech info ...spoke to a techie at company familiar with WVO in Diesels and he was optomistic, and while I am blending with RUG, he suggested the Diesel additive vs the Petro one...
This is the product site...http://www.starbrite.com/productdetail.cfm?ID=1538&ProductCat=Automotive&ProductSCat=Gas%20%26%20Diesel%20Additives%20%28Auto%29&ProductSSCat=
AA

There is more to getting suspended water to settle consistently than just heating and cooling it. Thisis why the hot pan test was developed. It allows folks to test for suspended water fairly easily and so can provide some guiance not only for those usuing a desing that has already been developed...but if thye are experimenting on their own.

quote:

Originally posted by Alex Laine:
New here, and very curious. I have also read all of this thread, and the question was asked about heating the oil for de-watering. The reply was sent that 50 Centigrade and left to cool was ok.
My question, how long should this oil be heated for, days? hours? Thank You in advance.

If your wvo is too dark to see through to the bottom of the pan through less than a 1/4 inch of it...I would consider clarifying it a bit before use. Often microscopic suspended water will not create bubbles which pop to the surface and instead only exist on the pan/oil intererface.

quote:

What happens if my oil is dark and I can't see the bottom of the pan through the oil? Will those small bubbles come to the top so I can see them?

quote:

water) on the bottom is still cooler than that. Eventually you would also notice the temperatue rising in the probes lower in the pan and right after you noticed that the temp near the bottom of the pan was rising to 212°F ther ewoudl be a muffled "BUMP" sound followed by lots of pain.

This was some of the water reaching 212°F and instantly turning to steam. Teh sudden increase in volume of the water then instantly displaces very ot oil causing it to leave the pan and deposit itself all over you. OW...OW..OW...OW..OW.

True true, years ago this happened to me, luckily I was out of range, but my kitchen did need redecorating. An expensive lesson.

okay read 3 or 4 pages. exactly how much water is too much. i took a couple of samples of oil to work.
settled for 30 or more, filterd, w/ diesel clean, and isoheat added .28% water.

unfiltered and fresh from the source .32%

and then i checked a friends bio-d unwashed high in methanol .29%

so quantitatively how much is too much. .5% .01%

does any one have a number?

i'm going to bring in a sample of pump diesel and see where it stands.