Well since this thread has been totally hijacked..might as well join in.

I read 'Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance' on my deathbed about 30 years ago...got better though. ;-)

It is the reason I either work on my own vehicles or personally know (as in know their wife and children) the mechanic doing the work. It is also why I could never make a decent living if I decided to be a mechanic.

Girl Mark, Vegenergy, Dana',
Great book, I wonder how many of the other members and lurkers here also were influenced by it. I don't want to be seen as some hippy mystic, but you really can get into the mind of the narrator. The bit where he watches the welder is a good example. Any one of us that has worked on things mechanical know the intense satisfaction and 'rightness' of doing the job properly and exercising our skills. There is a very Zen like aspect to it.

Girl Mark,
You must have had some pretty switched-on teachers at your school.

Dana
Re: It is the reason I either work on my own vehicles or personally know (as in know their wife and children) the mechanic doing the work. It is also why I could never make a decent living if I decided to be a mechanic.

Brother, I know exactly what you mean. As for you recovering , Maybe the calming effects of contemplating the writing allowed your body to sort itself out. Now I am getting mystical.
Regards
dva

Vegenergy,
I don't know, Some people keep dragging the thread away from it's origin. Didn'r aught to be allowed.
I guess I should state here for those who don't know, that I don't run svo. My interest in dewatering is to try and get a consistantly good wvo stock to make my bio from. Filtering (hot and cold) and dewatering seem to be the way to go as it can take an unreasonable time to 'correct' fuel that doesn't come out as expected.
I have considered doing a svo conversion to my old BMW, but have just heard (tonight) that the Merc engine I had planed to use has been sold. So it is back to my first idea of using a 1.9 Peugeot XUD engine. Much harder to fit.
Looking at it from the long term point of view. Dino is going to get more expensive, especially in Europe. The States will keep low prices for a long time as it is the only way the Government can stop you guys getting too restless. So we really need to analyse what we want from our cars. Older IDI engines are ideal for svo and bio. The newer high pressure systems promise to be more fragile and shorter lived. I recall one of our members reporting a HP fuel pump failure on his Peugeot 206 (I think it was a 206) It seems that this is a fairly common fault on this particular engine set-up. Very bad new that Peugeot should design such a thing. Economics rears it's head. Is it better to stick with older more reliable technology if the new stuff breaks down and wipes out all the advantage it promised ? I will stick to IDI.
But the tests still need to be carried out on svo to get a truly comprehensive picture of what can and can't be used in modern engines. Remember the way 'low sulphur' Diesel was introduced. Quickly followed by additives to compensate for the low lubrication problems it introduced.
Water is never a good idea in engines. If someone with a lot of cash could buy a brand new engine and pull it down, measure everything and then run it for 100,000 mile before stripping it again and assesing the wear, we would all be eternally gratefull. Till then we can only keep studying the notes that we get here and forming out own opinions.
regards
dva
Indeed, this entire method of personal transport is highly questionable from an energy efficiency standpoint (but that is a topic for another thread!).

So what are you waiting for ?
Re.

Ok..so maybe this is a horrible idea but...
Our heated SVO systems are already getting the fuel warm, why not take it that small step further in the vehicle to flash water off, inline.
Tim C Cook touched on this in the Alcohol thread.

Perhaps the addition of a tiny volume "flash tank" inline. Maybe a small chamber, where the preheated vegoil enters, and is exposed to just enough electrical heat to raise the fuel, inline to around 220 degF.
Seems that four glow-plugs (or similar) thermo swithced at say 270degF could do the job.
This flash chamber would need a top vent line that would run well above the top of the fuel tank. Pressure and vapor would escape via the vent tube. Vacuum from lift pump (or other fuel delivery pump) would draw from near the bottom (but perhaps not all the way), which would be lower than bottom of fuel tank.

Seems that since we are already getting the fuel fairly warm, the added energy to heat above 212F while in use (low amount of fuel/water to be heated at any given time) would be fairly easy to accomplish.

Here is a very simple drawing of the idea.
Just a thought.

EDIT...if fuel heated this much poses a problem for IP, or filter...another heat exchanger could be added after the flash unit to transfer excess heat BACK to coolant line.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: vegenergy,

dryer.jpg (21 Kb, 33 downloads)

275°F is very, very hot to send to the IP. Do want to cool it someway, or perhaps preheat more incoming oil with the very hot flash tank oil?

(please note: to get the " ° " sign, just hold down ALT and then 2 4 8.)

Has anybody tried fuel conditioners such as
Penray Total Diesel Fuel System Cleaner? Or just plan rubbing alcohol from the drug store or the old "Heat" Does this kind of stuff hurt/help with wvo?

Please be gentle with your answers if I am asking something of a nature that is less than Zen and the art of yada yada yada.

I got this "flash off" idea from a web page for an existing product for large diesel engines, they seem to be refered to as "on-board oil refiners" they are intended as bypass oil filters/water removers. They may work directly for wvo also but the small flowrate through a bypass type filter unit would have to be addressed somehow ( although this particular unit says it flows 4-5 gallon per hour, My cummins only uses about 4 gal/hr at 60 mph so may just work) . Click around this web page for lots of info. There are several other brands of similar product, some filter and flash all in the same canister.

I think this idea may have a fair amount of merit, and be a justifiable expense on larger more expensive vehicles.

I will look more into these units. I wonder if the flow rate is limited more by the particulate filter unit or the flash unit. Regardless, the idea is solid, and it may just be a matter of scaling it up.

Thanks Tim!

quote:

Originally posted by knkreb:

(please note: to get the " ° " sign, just hold down ALT and then 2 4 8.)

I tried holding down Alt and then 248, nothing, and then Alt and 248 all together(tricky) but I cannot get the degree sign, can anyone else, is it my cheap keyboard? I usually just copy and paste it from a notepad on my desktop.

Chug

It needs to be on the number pad and the num lock needs to be on.

RE: Onboard flashers - er - flash tanks...

Don't forget, there's usually a vacuum pump around somewhere to run power brakes and HVAC controls.

I know the old GM ones never worked, but it looks like the Germans did a good job on the VW.

Might be a way of reducing the temp requirement a little. YOU STILL NEED HEAT CAPACITY sufficient to boil off the water - but not so many degrees.

From looking at verious web pages for these "refiners" they all use some sort of electric heat to do the boiloff and just indicate they have a vent at the top of the tank for the vapor to excape, somewhere one site even gave the temp they heated the oil to. It may not be nescicary or worth the trouble to use vacuum as the system would have to be converted from a "continious" process to a "batch" process, the canister would need to be filled then sealed then evacuated and heated then emptied then filled again etc. This was my first thought and still may be the most practical and doable if it was part of a recirculating filter system on a tank. To get the flow rate of 4-5 gph they indicate this unit needs 60 pounds pressure if the filter elament is used. Problem with a continious process is that you will need to run a feed/lift pump after the flasher as the vapor removal opening will not let it be pressurised. May be doable by running an overflow line back to the tank ? Probably need another pump on this overflow line to insure reliable operation ?

Lots of variables to consider, just starting to think of how to sort them out.

Here is another refiner unit that does it all in one canister.


The following is a rebuttle statement from this webpage for OILGUARD filters.

------------------------------------

OIL REFINER
(Heating Element Bypass Filters)

How These Types of Filters Work

Some bypass filters feature a heated chamber, also known as an evaporation chamber or plenum chamber. In this design, oil first travels through the filter’s medium, and then enters the evaporation chamber where it is heated to 190º-200º. Manufacturers of this type of system “theorize” that heating the oil to this level will “flash off” water and fuel in the oil. They represent the product as being an “oil refiner”. This is simply not true. These filters are not oil refiners by any definition. The process of oil refining does not occur within any of these style filter products.

Problems with Oil Refiner (Heating Element Bypass Filters)

Increased Cost and Complexity – OilGuard believes that the heated chamber feature increases cost without increasing performance. Why?

A. 200º is not a high enough temperature to boil-off water and/or coolant.
B. Oil temperatures climb to 190º-200º in any engine that is run for 30 minutes or longer.

Here is a paper from the U.S. NAVY indicating tests in 5 vehicles using a heat chamber refiner kept the water low, one place says .05%, a couple others say .05 ppm ?, don't know witch is correct, either one is fine with me if it works for wvo.

Here is one that looks more like somthing we could use but I can't find much more info on it. It indicates a temp of 195 deg.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tim c cook,

I wonder why these units do not simply heat a bit more, to over 212°F (whoohoo notice the °!)

a vacuum system could be doen with one transfer pump to pump the flashed oil from the bottom of the tank back to the tank. Since there's vacuum in the vessel, it would suck incoming oil through the nozzle. The trick would be in regulating the flow to keep some oil in the tank - but preventing flooding. Probably could be done with a float apparatus contolling a valve on the inlet - not unlike a float style carburetor.

I wonder why someone doesn't somehow use the existing exhaust on the vehicle to heat the oil and boil out the water?

Exhaust gas temperatures can climb sky high. On my engine (GM 6.5) under load, they can go upwards of 800°F and higher. Too hot for veggie. Coolant offers more stable temps.

True.Some kind of diverter would be and ideal for exhaust.There must be a place with a stable temp on the engine. (eg valve cover,transmission,etc.)
Oh!back to the coolent system.I give up.

Pulling long hills with a load my cummins gets up to around 1100 deg f measured just behind the turbo.

I was thinking about doing a 50/50 mix.
Ever go about the 50/50 with wvo or 100% WVO?

MIX RATIO -- I have tried a 75wvo/25dsl mix. engine runs fine on it as long as I can get this thicker mix through the fuel filters.

I left on a trip on a nice warm 75 deg day and it ran fine but that night the temp got down around freezing in north texas and I was lucky to do 40 mph until I poured in more diesel and got the mix back to about 50/50, then it ran fine again. I changed 3 filteres before I was convinced it was just a temperature/thickness problem.

I will be adding electric heat around the filters before next fall, may also need to increase the size of the fuel line. hopefully a complete heated second tank system.