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I used to think the same thing, based on the 'heat a sample of oil and see how much it bubbles at the boiling point of water' test. But the way people recommend you do this dewatering today- filtering first to remove starches that hold on to water- seems much more effective than in my previous experiments. I did hear some numbers from someone who got lab testing done on their oil after doing the 'heat and let settle' method on quite crappy restaurant oil, and the water content was quite low. They heat to 5 micron or 1 micron or something like that. Unfortunately I dont' have the exact lab report myself.
I agree, if that's what you're saying. But if you're quoting diesel emulsions as an example and then saying 'why sweat it' about water found in vegoil fuel, then that doesn't sound 'right off the bat' like you're saying that one should add isopropyl. That's why people responded the way they did. Perhaps you were misunderstood. Mark |
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I dont' agree with Dana here. I test oil for water very rigorously every time I make biodiesel- which is quite often, and I haven't noticed that my oil which has sat around, exposed to the air in a rainy wintertime moist environment, has acquired any more signs of water than before it sat in this poor storage. Sometimes this oil sat around for 6 months including in non-tightly sealed storage tanks under a tarp , outdoors, and it didnt' develop signs of any more water content. Perhaps high-FFA oil would, that's the only variable I can think of that's not addressed by the stuff I was using. However of course the oil is more likely to have water in it in the first place from cooking food, or rain in the grease barrel, than diesel from Chevron would have generally. Mark |
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Part of what I said.."My point is; why sweat the unseen. Yeah go ahead and take the water you see out. Why not use a dispersant or emulsifier to treat the rest. I personally don't intentially heat treat
to settle water." Perhaps I was not clear enough. I assumed that one would understand I was talking about dino products. I guess that's because I'm a blender and that's where my point of view comes from.
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Suchi,
Sorry I have been "gone" so long. My answers to your questiosn follow.
No. As a rule they do this with filtering and settling. Dispersal is not generally accepted as the accepted method in the auto or fuel industry. on a related note:
No..Ideally no water would be present in fuel passing throug the IP.
Yes...but very small amounts of water are created in the fuel tank by this. And a small amount of space is left under the fuel pickup to allow several cups to several gallons to collect before it is picked up and sent on to the IP. In between a filter/water separator is usually provided so any free water can be intercepted before reaching the IP. These are not designed to separate out suspended water since it is not common in diesel fuel.
The commonly accepted way is to avoid tank condensation is to keep the tank as full as fuel as possible.
This may explain why these fuels containing water are extrememly rare and cannot be bought by someone "off the street". They can only be bought by folks who have signed a contract..whicis essentially a release for any damage which might be caused by the fuel.
Well...I feel it is AS safe as diesel fuel from water accumulation in that regards. I have yet to see more than 2 tablespoons of water accumulate in my 50 gallon heated test mule tank after..in excess of 2000 gallons of dewatered wvo has been run through it. Since I have seen this much wwater drop out of 50 gallons of prefiltered UN-dewatered wvo I DO feel much much safer using dewatered wvo to my vehicles than I would using un-dewatered wvo. Frankly from the research I have done on this over the past two years I would feel very foolish indeed if I used any un-dewateredwvo fuel. After all. I know better. Also: You said:
I do NOT believe I have ever said this. If you can find where I have please link to it. If not please to not "paraphrase" something I have not said....and attribute it to me. If I have said something that could lead you to believe thsi is what i think is true i need to go back and claify it. If I have not..you have attributed something to me which is contrary to what I believe to be true. You have also said: I think it would be much more accurrate to say that free water can exists in two forms..one of which is suspended microdroplets of free water. This is not "dissolved water". Finally,
Lets assume for a moment that emulsified water is safe to run through most IPs. How would you guarrentee that the emulsion remains in supension? Except for the proprietary techniques now being experimented with I know of no way to do so. Now lets be mreo realistic/pragmatic and assume that emulsified and suspended water is NOT safe to run through an IP. Do you know of any well tested and proven way to guarrentee that this suspended water does not fall out to form a pool of free water and later overwhelm your free water seperator and toast your IP? Do you know of any well tested and proven way to prevent ssupended water from concentrating in a heated tank and from running through your IP? I know of no dispersant or emulsifier which will accomplish this. Now a question for you. If your IP toasts will you have it examined of cavitaion damage? And if you discover that it was toasted as a result of your choice to ignore the danger....will you share this potentially embarrrassing result? Most choose to not share this (unreasonably) embarassing information on forums like these. In fact most who have contacted me about such damage has requested I not share it...or if I do at least not share their names. This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott, Dana दान danalinscott@yahoo.com http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/ VegOil Conversions by Dana Linscott- VO Conversion Consultation for large and small trucks, VO fuel related businesses, and co-generation(power/heat)projects, |
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I am introducing a blend to my MB 300D being 80% WVO (very clean clear well settled Canola) 15% Kerosine and 5% Ethanol (methylated spirits AUS).
Not yet set up to wholesale dewater but the WVO from the same source has been consistently dry when tested. I didn't test this batch but am putting my IP where my mouth is and adding the Ethanol... This will have the effect of course of lowering the available power slightly.... Note that in AUS the Methylated Spirits contains 5% water so I am adding water to the blend at the rate of 0.25%.... Filtered to 5 microns (I think) won't know until I get my commercial 5 micron filter bags. And yes Dana I will share my failure, moreover report the presence or otherwise of free water in the separator as I am about to put in excess of 1,000 kms on the vehicle using the blend over 3 days. I have designed a dewaterer using solar and will report on that in time as well. Dana, as far as this discussion goes I still assume that a suspension or emulsion in oil will be visable as cloudy, opps no, hazy oil... Clear oil will contain only dissolved water which,while it can be forced out on temperature rise, will not cause problems unless a drop in temperature in the fuel precipitates it out to haze and of course then the possibility of free water... Obviously this will need to be backed up by experimentation which I hope to get done this next weekend |
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BushPig, I have found suspended water in oil which appeared perfectly clear. I wish it were as simple as discerning a haze in warm wvo. It isn't. This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott, Dana दान danalinscott@yahoo.com http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/ VegOil Conversions by Dana Linscott- VO Conversion Consultation for large and small trucks, VO fuel related businesses, and co-generation(power/heat)projects, |
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Thnks dana.
Well I'm sure the ethanol will work....   In fact I'm betting on it. no guts; no glory...  mark send me your address, I've got a spare King's dickshoneairy soas you and dva can communicate... |
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Thanks Dana, I try to shorten this disscussion AMAP.
I think it would be much more accurrate to say that free water can exists in two forms..one of which is suspended microdroplets of free water. This is not "dissolved water". Not sure what you're getting at here? Suspended Microdroplets by definition is called an emulsion. I'm trying to define the terms we are throwing around in this thread.But this can get confusing when a surfactant is added to the emulsion, it no longer "acts" like a classic emulsion. Lets assume for a moment that emulsified water is safe to run through most IPs. How would you guarrentee that the emulsion remains in supension? Except for the proprietary techniques now being experimented with I know of no way to do so. With striaght WVO, I have no answer. For blenders, I say use a good dispersant. The one that I have just picked-up (found it locally)is http://www.powerservice.com/diesel_911_bulk_allsn_app.asp I think Power Sevice has some good products. Now I think I did post a diesel fuel emulsifier that can bought from a texas company.It is supposedly simular technology to Gunnermans idea. Wheather it works in WVO is another question? But I thnk it would be over kill for blenders. But didn't you say;" I do not believe that DISSOLVED water causes cavitation. It might...I don't have much information on it. I DO believe that SUSPENDED water can cause cavitation. Suspended water is larger than dissolved water..and smaller than free water. Now lets be mreo realistic/pragmatic and assume that emulsified and suspended water is NOT safe to run through an IP. Do you know of any well tested and proven way to guarrentee that this suspended water does not fall out to form a pool of free water and later overwhelm your free water seperator and toast your IP? Do you know of any well tested and proven way to prevent ssupended water from concentrating in a heated tank and from running through your IP? I know of no dispersant or emulsifier which will accomplish this. I guess someone could try to buy the surfactant I mentioned and bench test it, for swvo'ers. I'm relaying on the diesel additive chemists and since I'm blending I may be wrong! Now a question for you. If your IP toasts will you have it examined of cavitaion damage? And if you discover that it was toasted as a result of your choice to ignore the danger....will you share this potentially embarrrassing result? Yes absolutly, and i'll have my flame suit on when I post it. Then the Na-na'ers can have a field day. I'm all for the free sharing of information. Supposedly there is a German company that has an "additive" for SVO that makes heating it unnesessary. I contacted them, but they wanted all kinds of information about my "company" before they would discuss their additive. I probably have their email address for anyone that interested. |
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Don't bank on it TBP with out a surfactant (or possibly a dispersant).link
If you do a search on Diesohol you'll find that water won't stay in a solution of diesel and Ethanol. I'd equate the Kero your using to the diesel in diesohol. Another link
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now its my turn to say ... its not that simple and so far:-
I CAINT GET NOOOO; DA DA DA SEPARAAASHHHAANE OHHOOH; You see diesel is based on a 16 carbon chain average "cetane" petrol off course is octane average 8 chain carbon units or thereabouts and kerosine somewhere in between but more of a mixture as I understand. While gasoline/diesel and alcohol mixtures will not be "water" stable under 30% alcohol (per "The petroleum Handbook" 1938) triglycerides are very different in that not only do they contain those 3 long chain carbon units they also contain the glycerol molecule in the middle with all its Oxygen groups ready for partial/hydrogen bonding to short chain things such as alcohol and water. Remember how "water retensive" WVO is said to be in this very thread. Well here it works to the advantage; don't forget glycerol, ethanol and water are all polar solvents and will associate with one another in solution I believe and I can get nothing but a clear homogenous fluid with my blend once the ethanol is mixed in fully. But if it separates I will report; What the heck, I'll report anyway. Oh and as I understand it emulsions and suspensions are different animals... |
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This idea comes from a cross between this thread, and the one about de-watering w/o heat (using a vacuum) With all of this talk about addressing water in the fuel with chemicals and such, how 'bout a different "mechanical" means of removing water?
I have been pondering this one, and have an idea that's out there to critique, (or flame  ) Take your filtered WVO that is sufficiently dewatered by seperation, inject it through a nozzel into a vacuum tank. Maintain a vacuum in this tank with a pump. Inject the fuel into it with a nozzel, making the most surface area for the oil to be exposed to the vacuum environment. The water in which ever form would have the most chance to "flash off" in the vacuum state. This would apply as microdroplets, big droplets, King Kong droplets. I don't know if would apply to dissolved droplets or not. But my thinking is, warm WVO injected into this vacuum tank, would eliminate about 99.5% of all the water that may exsist in the mixture.Thoughts anyone? |
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this is called a flash evaporator. Of course if you google for flash evaporator you find a website selling drug paraphernelia instead of a description, but this system is used in the biodiesel industry for drying vegoil.
Mark |
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Any practical means of measuring water content in WVO? In any form (dissolved, microdribbles, etc)
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Hello all. Do a google search on freeze-drying and it should give a lot of info on applying a vacuum to "dry" water out of things.
James "If Your Engine is not happy, You are not going to be"....... a properly tuned engine will greatly add to your success of using VO as fuel........ |
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Very nice, I'm with ya....
I don't have time to screen all of DOW's wonders... but this surfactant seems to fit the bill As for further definition of suspensions and emulsification, perhaps we need to start using the miscible
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sushi Blender, |
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Knkreb,
Re.... ... I haven't tried this, but I suppose you could take a largish sample, say 2 kilo, of your 'wet' wvo. Very carefully weigh it then heat it for half an hour at well above 100C. cool ,and re-weigh. this should tell you how much water you got out. The bigger the sample the easier to see a difference. regards dva |
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Well, that would tell me how much is now gone, as opposed to how much is still left. *If* I knew that there was .35 Kg of water in the mixture, then I would know it to be dry when it was reduced that much. Without a certain "start" number of the water content, it still makes it a shot in the dark to find out how much water is still present. Can you use a spectrometer or something maybe?
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Just do it again!
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