hey guys, been a while since I last posted.

I need some input. I have '03 jetta wagon with (what used to be) a greasecar system. It's modified with hotfox pickup and HOH as opposed to HIH. I've had my conversion going for 2 years and over that time tried a few different configurations. The one I like best, from pre-IP temp standpoint was: veg tank-> FPHE#1--> under car to greasecar filter--> FPHE#2--> solenoid--> vegtherm--> clear filter--> IP. Temp-wise it had never been better- even with ambient temps in 50F range I was getting pre-IP temps 190 consistently (and within a few minutes of switching). The problem was polymerization (because the FPHE was downstream of the filter) and I noted a lot of crap in my little clear filter. Basically, when on diesel it was just baking the stagnant vegoil then when I switched to veg flicked it distally.

So, I recently decided to get FPHE#2 pre-filter. the config is now: tank--> FPHE#1--> under car--> FPHE#2--> greasecar filter--> solenoid--> vegtherm--> clearfilter--> IP. Benefit is I feel better knowing that any polymerized crap is caught in the fleetguard filter. Downside is temp. Even now with ambient temps in 70-80's the first 10-15 minutes pre-IP temps around 120-140F. Not until 45m is the temp up to 170's. Yesterday after 1 hour I was finally back up to 190's. I am basically using all of FPHE#2 heat to heat up my greasecar filter.

I see one benefit. From a resistance standpoint (which I would imagine would be important to consider from IP strain perspective) heating the filter is paramount. IE, doesn't matter if I have 200F preIP temp if way upstream I have a cold resistant filter to still have to suck through.

The downside is a clear loss of preIP temp.

1) what is more important- heating my filter to help with flow or maintaining those killer preIP temps?
2) is there any downside to heating the diesel-- IE, if I put my FPHE#2 just pre--IP line so that both vegfuel and diesel ran through it I would have the temperature benefit without having that stagnant polymerization issue. Is that ok to constantly heat up the diesel? My thought is that the diesel is most likely seeing that temp anyway once it hits the IP right?

thanks!!

brad

quote:

1) what is more important- heating my filter to help with flow or maintaining those killer preIP temps?
2) is there any downside to heating the diesel-- IE, if I put my FPHE#2 just pre--IP line so that both vegfuel and diesel ran through it I would have the temperature benefit without having that stagnant polymerization issue. Is that ok to constantly heat up the diesel? My thought is that the diesel is most likely seeing that temp anyway once it hits the IP right?

I don't think anyone reccomends pre-IP temps in excess of 160°F.
IPs are not designed to operate under temps this high and their useful life is probably shortened significantly when fuel is entering them at a temp hotter than that. Even 160°F may shorten their useful life somewhat.

You definately DO NOT want to heat diesel fuel at all prior to it entering the IP. This will definately shorten the IPS useful life significantly. Diesel simply does not have enough lubricity at that temp.

Heat your filter.
If you need a simple way to do that provide a description of the filter.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott,

Wait-- I thought you wanted it as hot as possible going into the IP (or have I always mistook the post IP injector line temp recommendations to be ideal preIP temps?) anyway, so 140-160 preIP is ok?

I have standard coolant wrapped GC fleetguard filter. I have the fphe just upstream.

quote:

140-160 preIP is ok?

Go with 160°F...

Once hot VO is flowing through the filter it doesn't addmuch heat. The wrap is mostly to liquify the VO in it when the ambient temp is low enough to solidify it.

Unless the copper coils are in very contact with the filter shell there isn't much heat going to the filter via that route. That shouldn't be a big concern.

VW tdi engines are notorious for not producing much heat and taking a long time to warm to switch over temp. You may just have to live with that.

Thanks. Sounds like my temps are reasonable then. Appreciate the input.

Have you tried insulating your fuel lines/coolant lines/heated filter/FPHE? It can help speed up the heatup and help maintain higher temps, especially during the winter.

Yep-- all insulated-- thanks!

Do you have a looped return?
If not, you can do that, and you will see higher temps.
If you want to, you can add a small valve on the looped return that can be left just slightly open to bleed off any air in the loop back to the veg tank, and that also allows you to open it right up and bleed air off at filter change time.

I disagree that 160F is hot enough for a TDI and also disagree that higher temps will shorten IP life.

Also check the thermostat, our TDI gets up to temp, full operating temp, within a few minutes, in this summer weather.


We have a customer with over 500,000 km (300,000 miles) on (mostly) Canola WVO on his TDI. The engine has well over 700,0000 km. He has replaced one injection pump.

See the following link, please.

http://web.me.com/plantdrive/P...d_going_strong!.html

(You might need to copy and paste the link in it's entirety to your browser, or if you cannot get it, just visit our home page and click on the link from there.)

plantdrive.ca

quote:

I disagree that higher temps will shorten IP life.

quote:

Duty cycle, temperature, quality of pumped liquid and inlet feed conditions all
effect the life of pump wear parts and service cycle.

quote:

Installing a
thermal relief valve to bleed-off system liquid [by-pass]
or a temperature control device to shut-off the system at
pre-set temperatures will offer the necessary pump
protection and avoid costly repairs or permanent pump
damage caused by excessive temperatures.

quote:

Avoid closed loop systems especially with high temperature

quote:

It is also
recommended that a THERMO VALVE be used in the
by-pass line to monitor the temperature build-up in the
by-pass loop to avoid premature seal failure.

http://www.catpumps.com/pdfs/articles/ProtectPump.pdf

Ed..you have been involved in Vo conversions for a long time. Surely you have spoken to IP engineers that explained why overheting an IP will shorten its useful life sometime in the last 10 years?

Does the fact that you sell a product which is prone to creating excessive pre-IP temperatures affect your opinion? After all the Vegtherm is one of the most profitable items Plantdrive sells. It is hard to agree with something (even if it is fairly well established fact) that might adversly effect ones income in a major way.

thanks guys. What's the going thought on injector line heaters? Maybe that's where I should be putting the heat. I'm averaging 150F preIP right now on my short commute but once everything really up to temp it's up to 190F preIP. So, I'm considering bagging my vegtherm and instead using that juice to power line injectors-- thoughts? I guess the 1st step is getting an IR gun and checking my injector line temps

quote:

I guess the 1st step is getting an IR gun and checking my injector line temps

Make sure that you read up on how diifcult it is to take an accurrate reading on a line with an IR gun. You may have to place insulaton behind the line (to block the heated surfaces behind it) and paint the section you are trynig to read flat black. And you STILL may not get an accurrate reading. IR guns are not made for reading temps on such small curved surfaces.

quote:

I'm considering bagging my vegtherm and instead using that juice to power line injectors

A good set of ILHs will not pull nearly as much amperage as a Vegtherm.

quote:

What's the going thought on injector line heaters?

I use them on all of my conversions..have for several years.
I know of no other way to reach the temps where VO injects like diesel fuel at normal temps.

are they a pain to install? I installed a plate running over my injector lines (the plate is where I secured my FPHE) so I might need to take out the injectors to install- is that difficult (or risky?)

The line heaters draw about 3 amps each, so if you have a 4 cyl. engine., 12A.
About the same as one glow plug.
A Vegtherm Standard can indeed draw 20A or so, but only if heating cold oil.
In normal operation, it will draw 12-16A.

Measurements of actual heat contribution of any electric heater should be made on the return fuel.
This is simple and accurate.

You could take a measurement with the Vegtherm on and off.


Do at least three runs of each setting, and average the results.
That becomes your baseline information.

Then, using the line heaters, on and off, do the same...using the same ambient temperatures (as close as you can), and the same driving style and driving cycle.

Return fuel is about the only way to get any accurate readings and make comparisons.
Otherwise, it is very difficult to measure the true effectiveness of injector line heaters.
Taking surface temperatures does not tell you how much the oil itself is being heated, and it is also difficult to tell how much the heater is doing versus how much the line is being influenced by the heating of the injector via the engine block, once the engine is warmed up.

And as has been pointed out, IR guns are difficult to use on shiny, small, curved surfaces, you cannot get accurate readings. They are useful for checking block temperatures, radiator temps, and also fuel injection pump temps.

For example, I can tell you that my distributor type injection pump runs in the high 70's, Celsius, on diesel fuel, return to tank, the factory setup. And it's been on there 18 years.

I guess someone needs to tell Mitsubishi that their setup will shorten the life of my pump!

quote:

Originally posted by friedfuel:
are they a pain to install? I installed a plate running over my injector lines (the plate is where I secured my FPHE) so I might need to take out the injectors to install- is that difficult (or risky?)

There should be no need to remove the injectors. Installation is easy. The procedure (with pictures) to do so is posted at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/.../2115581144/pic/list

You may need to join the group to veiw it.

quote:

Measurements of actual heat contribution of any electric heater should be made on the return fuel.
This is simple and accurate

This doesn't give a very accurrate temp reading of the pre injection temps either. But it is probably a simple way to get a ball park idea of hw much heat the ILHs are adding to the vo.

hey all-

I've been playing around with various configurations and location of my FPHE and I think that the FPHE itself my be the issue with my lower pre-IP temps. If you look at my fist post at the top of this thread I've been playing with the location of it- inititially I had GREAT pre-IP temps but the problem was my FPHE was downstream of my closed loop return and therefore wasn't getting backflushed with diesel on purge. So, essentially stagnant vegoil was getting baked in the FPHE while I ran diesel. I started noting polymerized crud in my chunkcatcher pre-IP which freaked me out so I placed the FPHE pre-veggie filter to be safer. But the temps were horrible (IE even now in relatively warm ambient temps I'm at 120-130's preIP 5 minutes into it and not up to 150s for like 15 minutes). So I've been trying different configurations and it seems my FPHE just isn't as efficient as when I first installed it- so I'm wondering it the FPHE itself has so much polymerized crap in it caking the passages that it just effectively transfer heat anymore? Anyone heard of this?

So- do I simply replaced the FPHE and keep in current configuration (which is pre-veg filter for safety but also pre-closed loop return so it gets back flushed with diesel)? anyone know if the racor heat exchanger is any better?

thanks

When your FPHE was in the return loop, it was only adding heat to the trickle of already hot fuel coming from the injectors and pump. Moving it to the other side of the valve will then add cool "makeup" fuel to be heated, but the total amount of heat added is the same, either way. Is the looping fuel also passing through the filter (again)? I'm not clear how your loop works. The only way I can imagine lower/slower temperatures is if the returning fuel is passing through the filter a second time, but the filter isn't hot to start with.

Mine is looped "after" the filter, that is, the fuel returning from the injectors and IP is added to the fuel arriving from the veg filter. It doesn't pass through the filter a second time. If I had a FPHE, I'd put it just before the IP, after the SVO solenoid valve, and would leave the (heated) filter upstream of the solenoid valve.

BTW, I'm adding electrical heat before my IP. It's only on when the SVO valve is energized. There's not much room for a FPHE near the IP.

Cheers,
JohnO

quote:

it seems my FPHE just isn't as efficient as when I first installed it- so I'm wondering it the FPHE itself has so much polymerized crap in it caking the passages that it just effectively transfer heat anymore? Anyone heard of this?

Yes, that's likely what happened; it's called fouling. You might have some luck soaking the FPHE in hot caustic then flushing it, but likely it's pooched.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by danalinscott:

You definately DO NOT want to heat diesel fuel at all prior to it entering the IP. This will definately shorten the IPS useful life significantly. Diesel simply does not have enough lubricity at that temp.

The IP gets just as hot as the engine, so does the fuel. The IP on our 03 Jetta, along with the fuel filter is under the heat/sound shield, right next to the engine itself. EVERYTHING under the shield gets piping hot, from the filter to the IP, along with the fuel.
On my 96 Dodge, the IP gets just as hot as the engine, so does the fuel. Diesel fuel can take any heat the engine can produce and not be damaging to the engine at those temps. If diesel were damaging at normal engine temps, there would be a slew of "diesel fuel cooling" products on the market. There are none.
I will agree that hot fuel will damage the electronic VP-44 IP in the Dodge. That particular IP is dependent on cool fuel to keep the electronics cool.

quote:

Diesel fuel can take any heat the engine can produce and not be damaging to the engine at those temps.

Unfortunately it is not damage to the engine itself that hot diesel causes. Most IPs use diesel fuel as a coolant and lubricant. And even before the switch to ULSD it was not demed by engine makers to have enough lubricity at high temps to prevent accellerated wear of IPs close tolerance internal parts which use it for lubrication.

It may seem that IPs get just as hot as the engines..but if you actually measure the temps of the diese fuel passing through you will find that at normal operating speeds it is removeing heat from the IP. Reduce the cooling capacity of the incomming diesl fuel enough and you will find that IPs do not last as long as they would if you did not.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

It may seem that IPs get just as hot as the engines..but if you actually measure the temps of the diese fuel passing through you will find that at normal operating speeds it is removeing heat from the IP. Reduce the cooling capacity of the incomming diesl fuel enough and you will find that IPs do not last as long as they would if you did not.

Can you provide links to any verifiable and creditable research on your statement?