I've been using a Gasoline powered 2" Harbor Freight pump for a while now and it works great. But I'm considering something else now because I'd like have something more portable and smaller.

I've read a bit but no real answers...

Will a SUMP Pump work to suck oil out of my restaurant barrels? ie:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95592

What about a Walmart cheap pool pump?

thnks!!
Nick

What about a drain pump off a washing machine. I got one for free from my local appliance store. I told the appliance repair guy what I wanted to use it for & he thought it should work fine. He says they are pretty durable & should be able to withstand wvo. I'm going to try it & see what happens. If it will hold up it should pump a crapload of oil real fast.

Most of those pumps run off a 110V motor. Are you carrying around a generator or a big inverter, or are you going to remove the electric motor and use another power source to spin the pump?

Cheers, John

Those pumps wont work. Impeller pumps work by creating a high speed [reverse] whirlpool inside a closed chamber. As the water pressure increases on the walls of the chamber, it "shoots" out the opening at high speed.

The VO is much too thick to build pressure on the walls of the chamber. It just gets whipped into a froth spinning around and barely a gallon a minute comes out.

The drain pump on a washing machine is the exact same thing.

Only a positive displacement pump will move VO consistantly and powerfully.

Expirement if you wish, but please dont spend much $$$ on something you will be disappointed with.

quote:

Originally posted by Pir8Darryl:
Those pumps wont work. Impeller pumps work by creating a high speed [reverse] whirlpool inside a closed chamber. As the water pressure increases on the walls of the chamber, it "shoots" out the opening at high speed.

The VO is much too thick to build pressure on the walls of the chamber. It just gets whipped into a froth spinning around and barely a gallon a minute comes out.

The drain pump on a washing machine is the exact same thing.

Only a positive displacement pump will move VO consistantly and powerfully.

Expirement if you wish, but please dont spend much $$$ on something you will be disappointed with.

I read here that a sump pump
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/91960555...771083971#4771083971

works great. But before I go out and spend the cash on one I want to confirm.

In all fairness I will admit that not all centrifigual impeller pumps are created equal. Some of them will actually move oil half way decently. The HF blue pump is an impeller pump and it works good. The 1/2 hp HF sump pump I bought wont move anything... But it moves water VERY well.

I just dont want you to spend big money on a piece that [in my expirence] wont work with VO. Especially when there are other options that do work well.

How many GPM are you trying to move?

quote:

Originally posted by Pir8Darryl:
In all fairness I will admit that not all centrifigual impeller pumps are created equal. Some of them will actually move oil half way decently. The HF blue pump is an impeller pump and it works good. The 1/2 hp HF sump pump I bought wont move anything... But it moves water VERY well.

I just dont want you to spend big money on a piece that [in my expirence] wont work with VO. Especially when there are other options that do work well.

How many GPM are you trying to move?

Thanks Darryl,
That makes sense. Also, I have the HF Blue pump and it does work good. I Almost am considering buying another one. I've got a source for really clean oil that has settled and I am looking for a small rig I can setup in my trunk. I want to have it so I can un-coil a hose into my drum, suck the stuff off the top through a 5 micron JME filter and into the tank and be on my way. Probably 20-30 gallons at a stop. I've got a truck with a heavy duty pump to clean the bottom junk off periodically.

Nick,
I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record here, and I'll probably start to annoy people before too much longer...... But...

[Once again] allow me to suggest my SBC pump:
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10978

That's great Darryl, Thanks! You're not annoying me! This is the first time I've seen this! Have you tried it with a Big Block Chevy pump yet?

Any ideas where to get a good 12V motor to drive it?

Yes, I'v got a BBC pump right here on my desk. The SBC pump is a superior unit for this conversion tho. The BBC has larger gears and would obviously flow more oil, but it's short and squat compared to the SBC unit, and there's no good place to drill into the side of it to put the discharge hose and make it seal up without welding it in.

Also, the BBC is $38 compared to $15 for the SBC.

Using the SBC pump and the steps I show, any knuckle-head with a drill and a hammer could make one in an afternooon for very little $$$. To do the same with the BBC would require welding and a lot more expense, and it just would not be worth the extra 1/2 GPM of flow you would get out of it.

Powering it in a mobile application could be accomplished by using a cordless 1/2 inch drill, or by a power inverter with a plug in drill... Both available cheap at HF.

With a cordless drill and a few feet of heater hose, the pic below would be a complete mobile pumping station!

Cool,
Now to find a high RPM 12V motor to power it. I've got an 18V drill from HF (Cheap Blue one with flashlight) that I'm about to toss (batteries only lived through about 10 charges and it's trash now). Maybe I'll try it. I think it's like 700RPMs so pretty low flow. I'm going to see if I can find something more like 3k. We'll see!

I think your idea is far better for what I'm doing than my idea. So thanks!!
Nick

Here's a link where some 12 volt options are discussed.
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11010

I have yet to find a 12V motor that meets the criteria to spin one of these, but I'm always looking...

quote:

Originally posted by Pir8Darryl:
Here's a link where some 12 volt options are discussed.
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11010

I have yet to find a 12V motor that meets the criteria to spin one of these, but I'm always looking...

Have you looked at geared starter motors as fitted to a lot of Japanese cars?
Johnno

I know one person that use a less than $100 sump pump with good success. I use a little Honda powered water pump with great success. I have tried all types of pumps over the years and like this the best.

Yes, I'v looked at starter motors, heater blower motors, 12V winch motors, even a generator off a 57 chevy.

While a starter can be made to work, there's a LOT of work involved.

Also, you start to reach a piont of diminishing returns. After you have spent ~$150, and invested 10-15 hours, it makes much more sense to purchase a fill-rite 12V pump @ $199 that comes with a warranty.

Believe me, making the pump for $24, then purchasing a $30 drill to spin it is the "tits" solution. The entire setup is cheap, the drill can multi-task and it comes with a warranty, etc... The KISS theory definately applies here!

Here's a hint, try the pawn shops for a drill. I got a $300 DeWalt cordless that was practically brand new for $50 at a pawn shop

I have used several centrifugal pumps on oil and they do work and some of them work particularly well. For oil, the best centrifugal pumps are the ones that have the large diameter impellers. The HF " turbo" type work but due to the smaller rotors don't seem to get nearly as good a " bite" on the oil as the larger impeller types.

I have a 300W pump I used to use with a small generator that worked great on liquid oil but wasn't so hot on liquid fats... Which may not be a bad thing in itself if you are trying to avoid them.

Form the generator/ Pump setup I thin went to a Marine Bilge pump. These are really compact, run off 12V are TOTALLY silent and the one I had whech was rated at 1500 GPH moved oil at about 30L ( 8 gal) a minute. Do not take any notice at all of bilge pump ratings. They are total fantasy even on water and I didn't find the one I had ( rule Brand) to be much slower on oil than water.

My current setup is like Darryl's, a Modded SBC Job. This is a pic of my first pump which worked very well but I have refined the setup over the last 6 months I have been using it.
I just finished building another one using a HV pump and coupled it to a 300W, 24V, 2650 Rpm scooter motor. It pushes 80L (21gal) per minute open flow and is very compact.

I direct ported the inlet and outlet into the pump casing and welded on some 1" elbows to which I screwed i some 1" plastic hose barbs. I am now using corrugated 1 1/4" Plastic washing machine type hose which is light and flexible as well as being cheaper than any other hose I could find.


This motor will easily do 50 gal at full speed or a lot more if it is just run at 12v which is only about 30-40% slower. I have since changed the hose coupling of the the motor to the pump (as in the picture) with a Lovejoy 050 coupler as the torque of the motor regularly ripped any hose I could fund apart. The lovejoy's handle it in their stride.

If you are filtering the oil as you pump, you would want to make very sure your hose connections are very tight and maybe even have a pressure gauge on the output side as these things will push some serious pressure and could easily blow out a filter or pop a hose if the restriction becomes too much.
A Bilge pump would remove the danger of this particular problem without any extra modifications.

The other thing I am looking at (Which would probably be overkill for this application, but for anyone else interested) would be a roller pump such as the Hypros.
I believe these could also be driven with a scooter motor especially as the RPM would need to be geared down, and these pumps also are capable of delivering around 21 GPM. They could be a good option for those that that are bereft of a welder or a lot of DIY skills as they could be built as just a screw together job with no real fabrication required.

A cordless drill should also be OK as the hypros do good flow at only 540 Rpm and are fairly light on their power requirements where no pressure is required.

I Like the chev pumps as they are very cost effective and will pump fat so thick it will come out the end as an extrusion that holds its shape as one long strand of sausage! They also crunch through crumbs, chips and most other things withing reason in an oil barrel without and need for filter screens.

So DCS,
You're using a 24V scooter motor... How did you find it? And no problems running off 12V Car battery voltage? You're saying 40% of 21Gallons per Minute, so around 12 or 13 GPM even at 12Volts? Is it reversable? If so can you run the pump backwards to unload your barrel?

While I've been thinking about Darryl's pump the past couple days, I've considered a weed-eater motor (Gas). Those are Tiny. I wonder what the Full Throttle RPM of those would be. I'm betting HP wise they're over 1HP. And, they're cheap.

What do you guys think?


Lastly, Darryl, You may know the answer to my other question about running in reverse... I'm assuming with a gear pump you can just reverse the drive motor and pump in the other direction. Would that be correct?

quote:

Originally posted by NickSorenson:
So DCS,
You're using a 24V scooter motor... How did you find it?

Saw one in my kids scooter and then found one in a dumpster. I was going to repair it but it was impossible to find the missing back wheel of the correct type so I stripped it for parts.
I since bought a few bigger ones at a local electronics disposal place.

quote:

And no problems running off 12V Car battery voltage? You're saying 40% of 21Gallons per Minute, so around 12 or 13 GPM even at 12Volts? Is it reversable? If so can you run the pump backwards to unload your barrel?

I usually run it from 24V but it works fine at 12V and still has a huge amount of torque. The halved voltage does not seem to translate into half flow. I think the motor isn't doing double the speed at double the volts due to an exponential load trying to push the pump to double speed.

As a DC motor it is reversible and the pumps work fine like that the way I set them up as well. The guy at the place I bought the motors from told me there is an inefficiency in reverse due to some electric principle but said it was very small. I certainly can't see any difference in one way or the other. It pumps at the same rate I can measure in either direction.

quote:

While I've been thinking about Darryl's pump the past couple days, I've considered a weed-eater motor (Gas). Those are Tiny. I wonder what the Full Throttle RPM of those would be. I'm betting HP wise they're over 1HP. And, they're cheap.

Most if not all of those motors will run 6000Rpm or above. I know at least one brand will run 10K. Most of these type motors are around or slightly under the 1 HP mark. Some high end commercial units with 35cc motors will do slightly over.... supposedly. I don't think it is the HP you are after in this application as much as the torque. The electric motors have huge torque right from the get go and are even difficult to stop turning with just 2 volts on them.

I think you would want to gear one of these 2-strokes down for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, Starting one of these engines when the pump was full and creating drag would likely be difficult. The motor would be hard to get to turn very fast and may not pick up to running speed either.

Secondly, I doubt they would have the low end torque to drive the pump very fast if direct coupled. I believe they would bog well before they got near max power. I have seen 23cc motors on small water pumps and used one on oil but it was lack lustre at best and I believe one of these gear pumps full oil would cause considerable drag.

EDIT:
Thinking about it, if you used one of these motors with the centrifugal clutch in place like a lot of the weedwackers have, they may be OK due to the unloading at low RPM. Playing with the clutch springs may allow them to be fine tuned to the needs of the pump.

One other advantage of electrically driving these pumps is that they are easily reversible.
I am going to wire my battery connections with a couple of switches for low and high speed and forward and reverse. I find reverse handy for clearing occasional blockages although it would be perfect for emptying a tank as you say.

I have been thinking of either gearing one of the pumps down with the electric motor or using 2 motors on the same pump to make it easier on the motors to handle really thick, fatty oil. They do struggle a bit to push the real thick stuff which I try to get for a bio making friend who is happy to use it.

The pumps will move anything that isn't solid but this stuff creates a lot of resistance in the hoses so I think the pumps are having to generate a good deal of PSI to shove it along.

We use pedestal sump pumps to move dirty veggie oil. They work very well. At the end of the youtube clip you can see the flow through a 3/4 in. hose. Our second pump has 1 in. hose. Bigger is better.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=8DF7xU9VxNI

quote:

Originally posted by NickSorenson:
Lastly, Darryl, You may know the answer to my other question about running in reverse... I'm assuming with a gear pump you can just reverse the drive motor and pump in the other direction. Would that be correct?

Nick, yes and no. Being a gear pump, it will pump in either direction. However, due to the design of the SBC pump, the shaft get lube oil only when operating in it's intended direction. It has a small channel cast into the housing that lets pressurized oil go to the shaft. You can see it in one of Darryls pictures. You could of course, use a dremmel and make a similar channel on the other side and cure the problem. Short periods of time running backwards is ok, but lack of lube will cause the shaft to seize in the housing over long runs. HTH Some pictures of mine.
Oh, BTW they work well for pumping methanoll too.