quote:

I imagine you could make a semi-upflow system in a grease dumpster. Put a baffle in the middle of the tank, that extends from the floor of the tank to 3/4 full. Then force the "input" to run down the front of the dumpster to keep disturbance to a minimum...the front half will settle until it gets high enough to overflow into the back half of the dumpster, then you collect from the rear half of the dumpster.

Excellent Smithers!!!

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Originally posted by john galt:

quote:

It removes free water but not dissolved water. Freezing, heating or presettling may be removing dissolved water but upflow settling itself does not. Test it for yourself and see.

Yes it does and yes I did. Any moisture, whether it's free or attached is heavier than clear clean dry oil.

So you can categorically confirm that you have tried upflow settling with No heat, no presettling and no freezing and were still able to get oil that was sufficiently dry to pass a hot pan test?

I find this exceptionally hard to believe. The process is less relevant than the characteristics of the way water and veg oil behave.

Before anyone rely's on their oil being properly dried through this method, I urge them to test their oil to confirm whether it is actually dry or not before putting their fuel system at risk.

Chris,

Where do you get the idea that I am not removing water? If you read my previous posts, my oil has passed the hot pan test, the ASTM diesel standard for water, the Sandy Brea test and the Karl Fischer tests.

Ron Schroeder
WD8CDH

quote:

Originally posted by Windsolar:
But, you are not removing water. The advantage of upflow and even heat in the finish barrel is removal of water. Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Ron Schroeder:
I don't have the luxury of presettling in the cubies for two reasons.

1. My wife would kill me if I had cubies stacked all over the place.

2. I don't want to have to dispose of the fats so heated upflow settling allows the fats to stay clear and liquid during the settling process.


For absolute minimal space, I have in the past eliminated storage compleatly. I ran the output directly from the filter into 5 gallon fuel jugs. Whenever I needed a jug of fuel, I would place an empty jug below the filter outlet and then dump 5 gallons of cruddy oil into the big funnel on top of the settling drum. Since the oil going in forces an equal amount of oil to come out, if I only put in as much waste oil in as my fuel container would hold, nothing would overflow. If I put 5 gallons of waste oil in the top, I could go away and let gravity do it's thin without me watching and the 5 gallon fuel jug would never overflow.

At that time, I was processing 5 gallons a day in a small apartment closset with about 3 minutes of work a day.

Freezing works I put a bottle of really wet oil in the freezer overnight The first night nothing visible but the second night produced free water at the bottom of the bottle.

quote:

Originally posted by sinbad:
Freezing works I put a bottle of really wet oil in the freezer overnight The first night nothing visible but the second night produced free water at the bottom of the bottle.

Did you do a control? Do the same experement again but put one jar in the freezer and one on the counter. See which one settles faster, more complete etc. Test differnet depths of oil to see how they react in a hot pan test

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Did you do a control? Do the same experement again but put one jar in the freezer and one on the counter. See which one settles faster, more complete etc. Test differnet depths of oil to see how they react in a hot pan test

Good idea. "Really wet oil" might produce settled free water at room temp. Only a control sample comparisson will prove anything.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
[QUOTE]It removes free water but not dissolved water. Freezing, heating or presettling may be removing dissolved water but upflow settling itself does not. Test it for yourself and see.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
Yes it does and yes I did. Any moisture, whether it's free or attached is heavier than clear clean dry oil. In the absence of convection currents what forces will cause the heavier moisture to rise to the top of the drum?

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The process I use is a system of steps including leaving the cubies stacked for months [aka presettling], freezing over the winter, decanting the best oil off the top, upflow settling, filtering, diluting and further settling, and final filtering. I've never claimed that any one individual part of the system does the job by itself.

Uhh Huh!
So typically again the story has changed.
First you say that it is not the freezing, heating or presettling of the oil that removes the water, now you say it's the entire process that does it.

Not to worry. I'm sure the next thing we'll see is another example of classic but transparent spin doctoring to try to justify what has been said even though it is completely hypocritical to any of the previous info. Or the previous statements may be edited and then an underhanded response posted as to what what I'm talking about!

Misinformation that dosen't stand up to simple inquiry's Certainly undermines the credibility and validity of any ideas posted although the frequent sarcastic reply's are also a give away as to the value of what some people say.

Fortunately people can adapt their own ideas on the concept which I saw some time ago posted on a UK forum and measure their own results from there.

Trolls

before you guys kill each other, can i ask john galt a question?

i expect to start building an upflow settling system tomorrow. i understand everything in the diagram you posted on page 1, except for the " 2
" OD exhaust tube" . are you talking about automotive exhaust pipe? any 2" pipe made for an exhaust system will do? or are you talking about something else ?
also, how are you holding the exhaust tube inside the 2" pipe nipple? wont the exhaust tube be just a hair smaller then the inside of the nipple?
unless i missed something, all i see is the exhaust tube inside the nipple, without anything supporting it.

and, im not trying to break up a good fight, or take sides, but if anyone would like me to try a test to prove this works, or does not work, i will be glad to try it.
i have wet oil that has been sitting for a year in cubies and it is 9F right now. so i think i can assume the water has frozen.
i plan to follow john's instructions for the first batch and see how dry it comes out.
if anyone wants some kind of a control test, let me know. i have about 400 gallons. ranging in age from 12 months to last week.

I didn't use a control. The oil was the gunk left in the drum after settling, the stuff John Galt turns into logs. It would be full of water but in the drum it has been sitting in there still wasn't any free water visible. I will do it again with a control.
It isn't a viable option for me as it just doesn't get that cold around here. I was thinking along the lines of a solar powered dryer. I want to experiment but it just won't stop raining.

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then used a ball peen hammer and a block of wood to peen a slight flare in one end so the tube wouldn't slip through the nipple.

thanks. i knew i was missing something. i was pretty sure the pipe was smaller then the nipple and you had a way of holding it in place.

as for how long i need to let it settle, i do plan to try longer and longer times. i wont wait two weeks then post here that it didnt work.

my plan is to start with 15 gallons, then add 15 gallons a week. which means 4 weeks settling time for the first 15 gallons.

that would great if i can do it that fast, but i will be surprised if the first batch is dewatered in 4 weeks. im expecting it to be longer. but, if it passes the fry pan test in 4 weeks, i will try it in three weeks, then 2, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:

quote:

It removes free water but not dissolved water. Freezing, heating or presettling may be removing dissolved water but upflow settling itself does not. Test it for yourself and see.

Yes it does and yes I did. Any moisture, whether it's free or attached is heavier than clear clean dry oil. In the absence of convection currents what forces will cause the heavier moisture to rise to the top of the drum?

Some people can't make it work for one reason or another. Some think the dip tube or flow valve are options then wonder why they get wet dirty oil. Oh well, that's the way it goes, I guess.

To be technically correct, settling in any form (upflow, downflow, sideways flow or even speeded up with a CF) will not remove dissolved water at all. The dissolved water must be converted to suspended or free water before it will settle. If the water is dissolved, it will neither fall or rise.

But if you remove all water except for dissolved water at reasonable temperatures (140F or below), then the oil should be below 500ppm total water.

didnt get to finish today. hope to start using the upflow system next week.

the only thing left to do is the bug screen and pantyhose filter.

i made a few changes, because i used what i had on hand, and i dont think it will make a difference.

i found an exhaust pipe that was just a hair too big, but i also found a coupler for the nipple. so i put the nipple through the settling barrel bung, screwed the coupler on inside of the barrel, then forced the exhaust pipe into the coupler. the pipe is shorter then 30", to allow for the length of the nipple and coupler, but it is still 30" from the bottom of the exhaust pipe to the top of the nipple.

i used a 30 gallon barrel instead of a 10 gallon for the top barrel.

screwed the hose-bib valve into the bung, didnt bother with the 3/4" street L. dont see a need for it.

quote:

To be technically correct, settling in any form (upflow, downflow, sideways flow or even speeded up with a CF) will not remove dissolved water at all. The dissolved water must be converted to suspended or free water before it will settle. If the water is dissolved, it will neither fall or rise.

But if you remove all water except for dissolved water at reasonable temperatures (140F or below), then the oil should be below 500ppm total water.

Oil dissolves water?

I though the main they ever mix at all is mostly due to hygroscopic contamination helping suspend water in the oil. Sort of an emulsifying effect.

A common expression is that "oil and water don't mix". I know that's not purely correct, but I thought it was mostly true, not only because of differing specific gravities, but also basic chemical incompatability at the molecular level.

I understand that generally, many substances are either water soluble or oil soluble. This doesn't meant that other solvents don't apply, but I think that even if other solvents do work to dissolve a particular substance, it would either be oil or water soluble, but not both.

Seems like a good set-up. My design was based on what I had on hand, and the ones my buddies have built have some variations like yours. I used a street elbow cuz I had one and I was concerned that the plastic hose bib I salvaged off a DHW heater might get sheared off in a klutz moment; I also wanted to keep the height of the output tube below the bottom of the upper barrel so it would completely drain. The 10 gal barrel was chosen cuz I had one, and I was trying to keep the overall height low enough to comfortably manage pouring a full cubie in the top.
The bugscreen filter is attached to a 2x2 frame that sits on the rim of the upper barrel and can hold a cubie in position to drain. The waistband of the pantyhose filter is stretched over the rim of a 16L oil bucket. This filter bucket has 3/4" holes drilled through the sides at two inch intervals about an inch off the bottom of the bucket. This provides a trap for any free water that might be in a cubie or bucket. The pantyhose [I use the biggest size available "super queen"] is supported by a plastic mesh orange bag that fits nicely over the bucket rim under the pantyhose. The filters are held in place on the rim with a big zip-tie. A golf ball went in each toe for weight and all the crud collects in the 'feet'.

quote:

Originally posted by Ron Schroeder:

To be technically correct, settling in any form (upflow, downflow, sideways flow or even speeded up with a CF) will not remove dissolved water at all. The dissolved water must be converted to suspended or free water before it will settle. If the water is dissolved, it will neither fall or rise.

Thank You Ron For finally putting forward some Accurate and reasonable info. It make a pleasant change from those that have nothing more than insults and sarcasm to attempt to assert their flawed position.

This is exactly what I suggested initially but of course was dismissed by some with their typical sarcastic and arrogant attitude which is very telling of the level of their actual intelligence and are never wrong in anything they say or do :

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
I do have severe reservations about the settling removing suspended water. If all the oil has the same amount of suspended water, then no oil is going to be heavier or lighter than any other so it will not precipitate out, rather just stay suspended.

My tests on a number of batches of oil, some that had been settling over 6 months confirmed this, as have 2 different qualified people I have by chance spoken to in the last week.

Something can only settle if it is heavier than the the medium it is suspended in. If matter is dissolved and bonded to another medium and the entire volume of the two is of consistent makeup and density, then nothing in the mix will be heavier than anything else.

The reason some people may get dry oil ( or so they say) out of what they put down to a settling process, has nothing to do with other people not being able to make it work, rather the other factors acting on the oil that the indignant and all knowing dismiss as not having any effect. Obviously not everyone will have their oil frozen and thawed or whatever else before they settle it or the identical set of factors that others do.

People relying solely on settling will not be able to get dry oil from that process alone and will need remove the dissolved water by some other means.

quote:

I'm not convinced that these different 'types' of water are all that valid, as long as the oil coming off the top meets the hot-pan moisture test.

oil does dissolve some water. the saturation point is when the oil contains the maximum amount of dissolved water - any addiditional water is considered "free". the exact saturation point increases with temperature, and can also be affected by contaminants.

so even free water can remain in suspension in oil if it's a micro droplet - when the droplet weighs too little to overcome the surface tension against the oil.

an emulsion, which is by definition just a mixture of two immiscible substances, is another form of free water. for example, margarine is a water-in-oil emulsion.

dissolved water doesn't hurt your engine, free water does.

that's all for now.

Hadn't considered the statement interpreted like that; those are good points for sure.

As long as the hot pan test shows the oil off the top of the barrel is dry, then I'm not particularly concerned with the labels put on the water left in the barrel.

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dissolved water doesn't hurt your engine, free water does.

I know some may contest your statement, but I've heard it a few times before, so it may be perfectly accurate.

I'm guessing that if the droplets are small enough, they won't have enough expansion capacity to cavitate steel from the IP.