Since I first began with the Frybrid Aluminum Line it has been copied by just about everyone so i thought I might as well make it easier. Here is one of my plans.

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This message has been edited. Last edited by: cgoodwin,

thats interesting, i was just talking with a friend the other day about making something very similar to that but i didnt know you use the same layout. great minds think alike.

-jared

Hi Chris,
I think it's really nice that you are providing this info for folks... you and I and a few others know how effective an aluminum HIH really is... I'm still baffeled @ why some folks are using scare tactics for failure or claim difficulty to construct to get others not to use these heaters... They are simple, reliable and highly effective... I did noticed that the brass T is the most expensive part of the fittings portion of your system... budget minded folks could sub in a 1/2" black iron fitting for less than $1.00 ea this brings down the price to $7.50 for each end fitting... this really doesn't compromise the intergity just the appearance.. also the aluminum inner tube is available from mcmaster in 25' lengths for about $25.00 ... anyhow I hope more folks use this system since it doesn't cost too much and really works well... and remember to use revers flow for maximum performance.... not trying to hijack your thread just added a couple of comments...
Take care,
Fat John

Some might argue its inherently flawed. Sure it probably won't fail. Just like an airplane probably won't crash. But if it does...

I fly in airplanes BTW. Doesn't matter, though. I've seen the design and I still don't get it. Thanks for sharing anyway.

What is the inherent flaw ? The design seems pretty robust to me, but I could be overlooking something.

The way I understand this design is that the integrity of the aluminum fuel tube is not compromised as it passes through a larger tube of coolant, and it is the coolant that's sealed by the tube fitting (part # xxx...k325 above). That tube fitting seems to me like the only possible weak link but the failure mode there would be a coolant leak - a bummer for sure but hardly a catastrophic failure.

Charlie

I agree with you Charlie.

IMO the worst case failure would be a crack in the inner hose resulting in coolant being sucked into the fuel line. I will have a water separator in my setup with an alarm to alert me if such a failure occurs.

I think hih vs hoh is a matter of personal risk assessment.

if you are worried don't do it.

If you're not, go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie_M:
What is the inherent flaw ? The design seems pretty robust to me, but I could be overlooking something.

The way I understand this design is that the integrity of the aluminum fuel tube is not compromised as it passes through a larger tube of coolant, and it is the coolant that's sealed by the tube fitting (part # xxx...k325 above). That tube fitting seems to me like the only possible weak link but the failure mode there would be a coolant leak - a bummer for sure but hardly a catastrophic failure.

Charlie

If you loose enough coolant, and don't catch it because it's dripping/spewing under the car, you'll blow a head gasket, crack a head, or worse. To me, that's catastrophic.

Craig

In my opinion if you cant monitor your temperature gauge you shouldn’t be driving a SVO powered car, or any car at all for that matter.

Everyone who is critiquing this design has never tried it... I'd be more interested in feedback from someone who has used a HIH with the heavy walled aluminum tube... a while back a post was placed asking about failures... a couple of PEX systems had failed but not one report of a failed HIH with the aluminum tube inside... To greener dreams... what assurance do you have that the wings will stay on you plane? I'm guessing proper engineering and some inspections make you comfortable... and the aircraft quality bolts that hold it all together... the aluminum tube that CG and I have provided the part #'s for is far superior to copper PEX or any other material that could be used for this app... the 3/8" tube can be bent into a 3" circle without kinking.... honestly using any other inner tube just isn't going to be the same... it would be like installing grade 5 bolts in the wing of the plane... they might work for a while... but ??? anyhow I hope that those who are sceptics will not continually try to sway others from trying something that works and works well... that's it for now...
Fat John

quote:

Originally posted by Dieselrover:

If you loose enough coolant, and don't catch it because it's dripping/spewing under the car, you'll blow a head gasket, crack a head, or worse. To me, that's catastrophic.

Craig

OK fair enough. To me it seems like:

1. it's not like the seal is going to suddenly let go and squirt coolant ... I mean ya sure any hose under your hood COULD do that, but... I figure if the seal's integrity becomes compromised over time due to repeated temperature cycling (most likely failrue mode I think...), that'll show up as a slow leak rather than a complete breakdown.

2. I generally keep an eye on my gauges while I'm driving and have a pretty good feeling for what the temp gauge ought to look like.

3. My conversion has a ball valve as the very first thing in the coolant line after the T in the heater hose. It's easily reachable with the hood up. If I ever do develop a coolant leak in my system and I'm 200 miles from anywhere, I can just shut the ball valve and be back to a 100% stock coolant flow.

I can see where it's a personal risk assessment. I'm not 100% sure I'm going to add a HIH to my already wonderfully working conversion. For now my car works great and there is a certain common sense to just leaving well enough alone. OTOH if I like the way this guy works out it may carry certain advantages. I am sure that I'm going to go ahead and build one and run it for a few weeks to see how I like it. Not a big priority though - maybe this summer or something.

In any case.... I can see both sides of the debate, "personal risk assessment" and all that is a fair description. There may be situations where it's not appropriate (for example if you convert a car for a lady who, when you ask her does she normally keep an eye on her guuges kind of gives you a blank stare...) I just found the decsription "fundamentally flawed design" to be both harsh, and excessively vague. Just trying to understand the source of some of the heat around this issue.

Is there a feeling that there's something about the design of the fitting responsible for that coolant seal that makes it appreciably more prone to failure than all the other coolant seals formed as part of a conversion?

Charlie

Facts I had never considered...
I am going to redesign my vehicle right away! I just realized after reading this thread that my head gasket is the only thing seperating the oil, coolant and combustion gasses, what if it should fail, I could get coolant in my combustion chamber and crack a piston, or coolant in my oil and burn a bearing. I also noticed that the hoses connecting the radiator to the engine are RUBBER, what if they fail??? OMG the radiator also has a transmission cooler attached to it and only a thin layer of aluminum seperates the trans fluid from the coolant! What were they thinking? I have also noticed that there is only a tiny lock nut holding the front wheels on the vehicle and the transmission, what were they thinking when they designed a transmission capable of propelling a 4000 lb vehicle at 80mph using only a few quarts of pink liquid? What if it leaks out??? These things are death traps! Why did we ever give up horses???? I can't believe I have been driving my family around in this catastrophic failure waiting to happen!

Sincerely,

Chicken Little

Very well put CG..... You try to let some folks in on how to make something you have found works very well... That makes you a good guy IMO.. but I have found that that some of the folks on this forum are so ultra cautious that I'm amazed they are even considering VO as a fuel or for that matter getting out of bed in the morning...and what bothers me more is that they keep raising concerns without ANY personal experience with the HIH design you are sharing... A while back I suggest you were likely MUCH smarter than me b'cause I was also sharing my HIH design and getting the same type of feedback... now I'm not so sure... we might actually be of similar intelegence... LOL... anyhow, like they say... I guess you can only lead the horse... you can't make em' drink...
Fat John

quote:

These things are death traps! Why did we ever give up horses???? I can't believe I have been driving my family around in this catastrophic failure waiting to happen!

come on chris... don't be so sarcastic.. you don't have to go back to the horse. you can push your car around town. It's great exercise and the only hose you're likely to blow is the one in your groin.

McMaster's site has 2 3/8" aluminum line. Which one is recommended .305 or .277 wall thickness?

Thanks

Jerry

quote:

Facts I had never considered...
I am going to redesign my vehicle right away!

The profesionals who design our vehicles are certified by the Society of Automotive Engineers, and they specify SAE materials and components in the manufacture of those vehicles. [Not all vehicles in the world are designed and manufactured to SAE standards. Look at the experience of one forum member who bought a Korean knock-off of a MB and had the drivetrain fall apart.]

Many users of VO are DIYers motivated by getting by as cheap as possible with 'hardware store' components. Educating users to understand that "cheap is not always best" is the real challenge to VO system designers and companies offering plans. Kit manufacturers at least have some control over quality of materials used in their designs.

quote:

I have found that that some of the folks on this forum are so ultra cautious that I'm amazed they are even considering VO as a fuel or for that matter getting out of bed in the morning...

Some folks buy an old MB beater for a few thou and convert it to VO fuel. Others have new trucks worth tens of thousands, and are understandably cautious about making modifications to save a few bucks on fuel which might cause thousands of dollars of damage.

One would expect that responsible companies would recognize that important difference in their customer base, instead of insulting potential customers for their caution.

quote:

The profesionals who design our vehicles are certified by the Society of Automotive Engineers, and they specify SAE materials and components in the manufacture of those vehicles.

LOL,
The Firestone 500 tire was a "Certified" Design, as was the Ford Pinto, The DC10 was built to aviation standards but trhe cargo doors opened in flight and dumped all 333 passengers out at 30k ft., Ford Exploders have killed dozens and are a SAE certified vehicle. I could go on and on. Early TDI vehicles had a nozzel which sprays raw diesel into the CAT, the hose fails and sprays diesel into the intake causing runaway engines, BMW 740il engines fell apart, The Mercedes 190E 2.3 is probably the worst engine ever made.

The point is that this design is about as secure as it gets, and were it to fail the result would be that the engine would stop. Either the fuel line would suck coolant and the motor would stop right away or the outer shell would fail resulting in a coolant leak, just as water pumps fail, thermostat flange seals fail on VW's, Radiators fail all the time, hoses burst, fan clutches fail and put the fan through the radiator, head gaskets fail, etc, etc.

Caution is one thing, being chicken little is another. HOH can fail having the same results as relating to coolant loss... Do what you like, I have tens of thousands of miles on this system without one incident.

CG

Hi JG,
Forget that I ever brought up this idea... (most of my ideas have been shot down on this forum) But think about this.... CG of frybrid puts more thought into his VO systems than just about anyone in the bus... He is an accomplished mechanic and technician... and has been doing VO conversions for some time... I and many others consider him an expert in this field... his products command some of the highest prices for conversion systems... when it somes to reliability of his systems he has nearly impecable creditability... bottom line is his systems work better than most... I seriously doubt he would risk his reputation by suggesting an inferior component to be used in his systems... now for some reason he has decided to share his construction designs for his HIH... and all he has gotten is a bunch of flak from folks who have never even tried his design... IMO that's too bad... I'm sure responsis like he has recieved here will encourage him to share other ideas for free as well... I don't think so.. I stopped posting here for a while... mostly because of the negative responses I've recieved... looks like I need some more time off... I'll be over @ the FGF where there is a more postive attitude for new ideas...
Fat John

cgoodwin,
great lay out for DIYers out here, thanks for the info. me likey

nate