Try discussing it on a forum where membership is required to view or post on that topic.

quote:

Originally posted by cgoodwin:
Try discussing it on a forum where membership is required to view or post on that topic.

Thanks Chris...

But unfortunately that really tends to make identification of the participants MORE possible rather than less. Requiring membership as you suggst would not only provide a path back to each and every participant but to every person who caed to look at the discussion.

The request was that I find a way to provide COMPLETE anonymity for those involved in that discussion. Harder than it sounds to do that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott,

quote:

The request was that I find a way to provide COMPLETE anonymity for those involved in that discussion. Harder than it sounds to do that.

Or not...
It has been suggested that folks who wish to remain anonymous can just email me with their posts and I can cut and paste the contents into this discussion..and then delete the original email.

For those who want to do this my email is at the bottom of every one of my posts.
danalinscott@yahoo.com

quote:

Anonone posted:
I mainly want to avoid the paperwork that selling fuel creates.
Do I have to sell UFO as fuel?
Can't I sell it as "feed supplement"?

quote:

Anontwo posted:
You have to have some way for the buyer to find the seller.
The state revenue dept will find you if they want to the same way that customers do.
I don't see any way to avoid that. Do you?

quote:

Anonthree posted:
What if someone took all the VO in your "depot box" and didn' pay you? I know you said that it would be prepaid with Paypal..but what if you don't have paypal?

quote:

Anonfour posted:
What is too keep a customer from paying for fuel one day and bringing a hacksaw to help themselves to it for free the next time they were in the area?

I don't see much point in discussing this anonymously when you would be easily traceable by the fact that you would have to give the buyer of the fuel an address to get the oil from and if your getting paid by anything other than cash ( which would presumably be a person to person transaction that still left you wide open) your going to leave a paper trail with PreyPal and anything similar.

In order for buyers to know where the oil was, there would also have to be some sort of promotion or advertisement even within a group. By letting anyone at all know where the oil was and taking payment for it, you would be an easy target for any undercover authorities that wanted to find you.

Those that don't even want to discuss this publicly are going to loose a lot of sleep when they are actually selling the oil and have people they have never met turning up to by it and getting their bank account details.

I was contacted last night by an existing WVO supplier in one of the target cities that is interested in being part of a national network.
One down...34 to go.

quote:

I don't see much point in discussing this anonymously

Frankly neither do I.
But I am willing to give it a try if it will move the project forward in any way.

quote:

By letting anyone at all know where the oil was and taking payment for it, you would be an easy target for any undercover authorities that wanted to find you.

True enough. But in the US no environmental authority is likely to do that. So as long as tax is paid on the transaction there is little danger of any "undercover" agent looking for wvo sellers.

quote:

Anonfour posted:
What is too keep a customer from paying for fuel one day and bringing a hacksaw to help themselves to it for free the next time they were in the area?

There are several possibilities.
The sales kiosk can be portable. So it COULD be set in a different "parking lot" (with a hitch lock) each time. Or the lock could just be placed in a lock protective "cup" so cutting it with a bolt cutter or hacksaw is imposible. Few are going to travel with a cutting torch.

quote:

Anonthree posted:
What if someone took all the VO in your "depot box" and didn' pay you? I know you said that it would be prepaid with Paypal..but what if you don't have paypal?

For those who don't want to set up an individual Paypal acct. payment COULD be made through a central Paypal acct and disbursed to the individual depots on a monthly basis.

quote:

Anonone posted:
I mainly want to avoid the paperwork that selling fuel creates.
Do I have to sell UFO as fuel?
Can't I sell it as "feed supplement"?

Maybe .. but personally the hassle of paying taxes on it isn't worth the risk IMO. Perhaps you could simply sell it as wvo or "feed supplement" and pay state sales tax on the transaction. THAT is nearly paperwork free and would reduce the risk of being prosecuted for tax evasion.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott,

I was just contacted by a second existing wvo supplier in a second target city that wants to participate in the network.

Two down and 33 to go.

Dana,

I think it is a good Idea to sell the vo as "feedstock only". The customer can decide what to do with it after they buy it. but you gotta pay some sort of taxes on it....it's the american way. however those with a farm liscense may be exempt if they are buying feedstock for their "horsepower"..... uuhhh ...I mean Horses. I also think that you would have to have a pump on site. It would be so much more simple to have one large holding tank for the fuel with a pump connected to it. rather than cleaning and filling 30 cubies to store clean vo in. Sure you could make cubies available if you wanted but to me that's a lot of hassle. pumping would require a metered pump. Then you would have to figure out how to limit how much a coustomer could pump according to how much they paid.
How did you plan to offer only as many cubies as the coustomer paid for? Unfortunately, I don't think you could count on human nature here.

I think security would be an issue and minimizing the risk of theft important. think about pumps/vo/hoses/tanks.. etc. but that is more something to be worked out by the individual business.

Peace,
Dan

quote:

I think it is a good Idea to sell the vo as "feedstock only".

That is certainly an option.
It will have to be up to the individual "depot owner" IMO.

quote:

you gotta pay some sort of taxes on it....

I agree. Avoiding paying taxes due is simply not worth the risk IMO.

quote:

I also think that you would have to have a pump on site. It would be so much more simple to have one large holding tank for the fuel with a pump connected to it. rather than cleaning and filling 30 cubies to store clean vo in.

There are cetainly advantages to this..but I think that (at least initially) the disavantages outweight the advantages. Such as the cost of

quote:

how to limit how much a coustomer could pump according to how much they paid.

quote:

How did you plan to offer only as many cubies as the coustomer paid for? I don't think you could count on human nature here.

I think you can.
But human nature varys from one human to another.
I don't think that any business can ignore the fact that there are dshonest people it will come into contact with.

Ther are several low tech options.
The simplest probably is having a portable kiosk which is loaded with no more cubees than the customer pre-paid for. That kiosk is dropped off at the location that the customer has been provided directions to. It is locked with a combination lock (whose code is easily changed) and the customer is provided the unlock code. The customer has provided a deposit on the cubees and so if they leave the cubees and only take the VO that dposit is refunded. If they take the cubees and leave cubees that need to be cleaned only part of the deposit is refunded. If they take the cubees and leave none the deposit is not refunded.

quote:

I think security would be an issue and minimizing the risk of theft important.

I agree.
But as you see the solutions are not complex or expensive until the sales reach several hundred gallons per day. And at that point perhaps a more expensive or complex solution is warrented.

Got another one.

32 to go.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

Trying to "stay under the radar" does not garrentee that one will not "get jammed up by .gov. If you want to run a serious business it may in fact almost garrentee that you DO get "jammed".

I understand your POV having been seriously "jammed up" by a corrupt official and a few not corrupt gov crats who thought they were just doing their job. Possibly they were.

One cannot simply ignore the law and then blame being caught doing so on the ".gov". Nor can one fail to adequatly research the legality of something and then claim that your willful ignorance somehow should shield one from the consequences.

And of course if a person wishes to do more than simply provide for ones own needs "staying under the radar" is not practical.

It seems what you are saying in relation to staying under the radar here and what you have said else where about it is rather hypocritical. I'm sure you will have another excuse to spin doctor it and maintain your never wrong facade but if I were a person with a family, property or assets that could be placed at risk doing this, I'd be wanting a lot more than you hollow and self serving assurances that there was nothing to worry about.

Unless this can be done totally legally and achieving that compliance can be a worthwhile business investment that has a reasonable chance of earning a return ( which would seem unlikely) I think most people will need to be VERY careful about getting involved.

My suggestion is people make inquiries with their local authorities, all of them that could have an interest such as local councils, EPA, fire dept and anyone else that could show up and issue fines or make trouble for non compliance.

One wouldn't want to put ones savings and future at risk by exposing themselves to all sorts of government Dept attention and being declared in non compliance.
If a person can't do this legally, then I would suggest it is far from worth talking the risk of doing it at all.

quote:

It seems what you are saying in relation to staying under the radar here and what you have said else where about it is rather hypocritical.

Then you had better read it again.
I don't advocate not complying with the applicable regs or avoiding paying taxes.

I am willing to discuss it however since it is through discussion that the best options will emerge.

You really need another hobby.
The trolling is getting old.

Legality is the real issue when considering opening a business. Having a yard sale is a whole lot different than selling products retail. One is generally overlooked, the other is scrutinized by every government official that lurks near by.

Yesterday, I was searching for possibilities to exempt my cars from the annually required emissions test. Luckily, I found it. I only need classic car insurance to get the exemption. Transition in progress.

However, in my search I discovered some interesting pages on fuel, fuel blending and fuel taxes.
http://www.azdot.gov/mvd/FuelTaxEvasion/

More specifically, what is the legality of "Blending"? From the AZ DOT web site...

<quote>
What is illegally blended fuel?

Illegally blended fuel, sometimes referred to as “cocktailed” fuel, results when waste products, “stale” fuel, or other untaxed products are illegally blended with diesel fuel to evade fuel taxes.


Report a Violator online or call 877-AZFuels (877-293-8357)
</quote>

So, today, to sell WVO as "Fuel", taht is illegal at all levels of government regulation. To sell it as "feed stock" or using any other term, it would require a business license and the collection of sales tax. And a clear statement stating that the WVO is not to be used as a motor fuel. That should cover our part.

quote:

Legality is the real issue when considering opening a business.

I agree.
And as I have stated repeatedly I believe that it is best to pay all taxes due and not try to use flimsy loopholes to avpoid that. However most states make it very easy to pay fuel taxes. iam willing to participate..even facliitate.. a discussion on possible loopholes because there may be legitimate ones ..but mostly because I think that most will see on their own during such a discussion that it is wisest AND most practical to simply pay the tax that is due in any activity.

The AZ state fuel tax laws probably don't apply exactly to every other state..but also are probably fairly representative of others states laws on this.

quote:

Having a yard sale is a whole lot different than selling products retail.

I agree...and it appears that most of the individuals contacting me are already past the "yard sale" point. But I think that some woudl take at least a few months to get past that point and might choose to initially fly under the radar at least to the "break even" point. Most states only require a quarterly fuel tax filing and so there appears to be a 3 month "grace period" where someone chould give it a try and if it looked promising at 3 month get a business lisc and send in the taxes due at that point.

Frankly I think that such a venture could easily break even at the 2 month period with good planning and support.

Got another interested.
31 to go.

It appear there are two types of individuals who are seriously interested.

Those that already have some type of WVO collecting/processing that currently sell VO as fuel or biodiesel feedstock.
and
Those that are looking for extra income, have the processing equipment already, and have access to more wvo than they can possibly use.

The first are handling tax in three different ways.
1.Ignoring it.
2.Selling the wvo as biodiesel feedstock rather than fuel. (no tax due)
and
3.Paying fuel taxes.

The second appear to be unsure of how to handle tax..but would really prefer to not have to deal with the "whole tax thing".

I really like the concept of selling wvo as biodiesel feedstock and letting the burden of reporting and paying taxes on the consumer. It would simplify the process but appears to me to be a little too dicey to me if one is particiapting in a wvo fuel network.

I wonder if one simply made a good faith effort to inform customers that if they intend to use the wvo they are ordering as fuel rather than biodiesel feedstock they need to pay road taxes on it. Something on the order page that says wvo ahs many uses..and list them off.. but if you intend to use it as fuel road taxes may have to be paid.

Something like:
"If you intend to use this as fuel in an on road vehicle please click here for the forms required to do that."

This is one step further than supermarkets go with svo.

Paying the proper tax is not the real issue when selling WVO as a fuel.

The real problem is that WVO is not a "FUEL". Sure, the seller can declare it a fuel. Individuals can call it a fuel. However, until the government makes the same declaration, it is illegal to sell it as a fuel.

I've consulted with (that is, I have worked within) many departments within the State of AZ over the past dozen years. I have been lucky enough to personally get to know the prominent people in charge of the regulator side. In each relevant department, I was able to pose the question without fearing any kind of business retribution. This is, as a hypothetical (is this possible?) question.

The question: Could I open a fueling station to sell WVO to the public? Each person I asked already knew that I run WVO in my car.

The business license, device license, tax license and volume control (using actual fuel pumps) are easily obtainable for such a business. The problem is that EPA, Air Quality and Weights & Measures all will immediately shut the operation down for selling an illegal "fuel".

It is the same mentality that applies to emission control devices on a car. It is illegal to modify, replace with different style or remove any emission control device. Emission control devices typically include vacuum lines, air pump, EGR, intake manifold, exhaust parts (manifold, cats, pipes), etc. According to the EPA, to be legal, your car must continue to use OEM style parts. It does not matter if your upgrades/changes actually make your car emit fewer pollutants. If the part is not there and does not look OEM, you have committed a crime when you operate that vehicle on a public road.

Dana, please do not get the wrong impression of me. I am 100% FOR creating businesses to sell clean WVO. I just think too many people on this forum are stuck on the tax issue. Taxes are a no brainer. Suck it up, fill out the forms and pay the man. We need more people to get involved to get regulators to allow WVO as “fuel”. Otherwise, we will need to sell it as a non-fuel product. And to do that, we will certainly be walking a thin line. Keep up the good work everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunrise Club:
Paying the proper tax is not the real issue when selling WVO as a fuel.

The real problem is that WVO is not a "FUEL". Sure, the seller can declare it a fuel. Individuals can call it a fuel. However, until the government makes the same declaration, it is illegal to sell it as a fuel.

I've consulted with (that is, I have worked within) many departments within the State of AZ over the past dozen years. I have been lucky enough to personally get to know the prominent people in charge of the regulator side. In each relevant department, I was able to pose the question without fearing any kind of business retribution. This is, as a hypothetical (is this possible?) question.

The question: Could I open a fueling station to sell WVO to the public? Each person I asked already knew that I run WVO in my car.

The business license, device license, tax license and volume control (using actual fuel pumps) are easily obtainable for such a business. The problem is that EPA, Air Quality and Weights & Measures all will immediately shut the operation down for selling an illegal "fuel".

It is the same mentality that applies to emission control devices on a car. It is illegal to modify, replace with different style or remove any emission control device. Emission control devices typically include vacuum lines, air pump, EGR, intake manifold, exhaust parts (manifold, cats, pipes), etc. According to the EPA, to be legal, your car must continue to use OEM style parts. It does not matter if your upgrades/changes actually make your car emit fewer pollutants.

Dana, please do not get the wrong impression of me. I am 100% FOR creating businesses to sell clean WVO. I just think too many people on this forum are stuck on the tax issue. Taxes are a no brainer. Suck it up, fill out the forms and pay the man. We need more people to get involved to get regulators to allow WVO as “fuel”. Otherwise, we will need to sell it as a non-fuel product. And to do that, we will certainly be walking a thin line. Keep up the good work everyone.

I don't think I understand the gist of your post Michael,

Is it that taxes should be paid or that it isn't possible to sell WVO as feul without being quickly shut down?

quote:

If the part is not there and does not look OEM, you have committed a crime when you operate that vehicle on a public road.

It is a fine point..but legally you are not committing a "crime". You are failing to comply with a regulation. That may a fine point..but the difference between the two legally is huge. As are the consequences.

Here I think is the central conundrum.
(and I agree on the "paying taxes part)
If one sells wvo as fuel and collects the taxes due on fuel one is essentially admitting that they are selling wvo for use as a fuel. Should any authority then choose to then allege that such an activity are in violation of a regulation. Though the EPA is unlikely to do this some other agency ..especially a state agency... may.

However..if one is simply selling wvo there is no such exposure.
Nor is there exposure to the weights and measures standards applied to those selling fuel.

The idea of simply selling wvo and letting the end user determine what taxes are due was not intended as a way to avoid paying taxes due on fuel. It was (I believe) intended to avoid having to deal with ANY of the liabilitys that attach to the selling of fuel. There are a LOT more people willing to provide wvo if the process to do so is very simple...and the liability attached is low.

Personally though I would rather just encourage people to "pay the tax" it may be more practical to not sell wvo for any particular use. Supermarkets do not sell SVO with any particular use in mind. Thsoe who sell yellow grease do not sell it with any particular use in mind. I think that possibly it may be the most practical option if in this case wvo is not sold with any particular use in mind. I don't think that in fact anyone who has wvo available for sale cares what use it is going to be put to.

Of course since the sales of wvo would be retail sales (as opposed to wholesale) some tax would need to be collected and remitted to the state revenue depts in most states. Just not "road" tax.

A while back I contacted the Washington State Tax Board to ask how I am to pay my fair share of highway taxes (I try to present a fully compliant image as a homebrewer). The nice response was to thank me for contacting them, and to clarify that fuel I personally make for my personal use is exempt from Washington State highway tax. Fuel made for commercial use is NOT exempt, nor is fuel made to be sold either retail or wholesale, although it is the user's responsability to see that it is paid, not the supplier. The supplier has a responsability to verify the user has a road-tax number when selling fuel without highway tax.

Since I don't have a business, I cannot apply for the Federal Highway tax number (PUC). Since I make less than 600 gallons a year, I fall below the reportable level even if I was running a business. Since I drive a little pickup truck, under 26,000 # (Waaaaay under), I also fall below the Federal threshold.

Those all being my case, I am allowed to use WVO as fuel for my personal transportation. I can actually use almost anything as fuel (sewage, water, Pepsi, magic pills, even Diesel Secret) without having to pay or report highway tax, provided I still meet the above mentioned requirements.

That being said, someone cannot legally sell me WVO "AS FUEL", only as Used Cooking Oil. I'm then free to use it as I please after buying it, again providing I meet the above mentioned requirements.

I would change the location of the quotation marks at the heading of this discussion to; Beginning a national VO "fuel" station infrastructure, since we're not really talking about fuel (as legally defined), but rather about SVO as feedstock for our personal use.

Cheers,
JohnO
.02Cents dept

I got a similar response in our jurisdiction. It was suggested don't sell or dispense 'fuel'. Sell it for what it is [BD or VO] in cubies or user supplied containers. What the user chooses to do with it is their concern and their tax liability.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
I got a similar response in our jurisdiction. It was suggested don't sell or dispense 'fuel'. Sell it for what it is [BD or VO] in cubies or user supplied containers. What the user chooses to do with it is their concern and their tax liability.

Dana, what Johno and John Galt mentioned, is what I am getting at. Paying or admitting to taxes (sales or road), from the seller or the buyer, is not a stumbling block in this suggested adventure. So, we need to get past the tax stuff and move on to the next level of challenges.

How you label the product (as a "fuel") is the stumbling block. Selling a product called "WVO" in original cubies or in customer-supplied containers is a good direction. Yes, grocery stores sell VO. But the intent is for baking/cooking (it's in the baking isle, not the automotive isle), but can be used for any purpose the customer wants to use it for.

However, selling directly from a fueling pump style device that can be dispensed and in fact encourages it to be dispensed directly into an automobile implies you are selling a "motor fuel". And that is where the problem begins.

In the same way they don't sell candy cigarettes anymore. "Oh, they are just candy. Nothing more." Or are we implying smoking is good for you?

Now if we consider selling WVO in the same fashion that water is sold, we might be stepping in the right direction.

Consider for a moment two types of selling...
1) Water from a grocery store - Is sold in plastic containers ranging from a pint to 2.5 gallons. There are also varieties of water intended for different purposes (filtered, distilled, spring, RO). Yet in each case, the water can be consumed (drank) by the consumer.

2) Water from a water store or parking lot dispenser - Is sold by volume and dispensed into the customer supplied container. In some cases, container size is not limited.

In both cases, the customer can obviously choose to do anything they want with the water purchased. Yet, it is implied that the water is for drinking (potable water). In no case, would there be a garden hose style dispenser available for the customer to fill large containers such as a water truck (implying other uses).

I know a fuel pump style dispenser would be the most convenient for customers. This allows the skipping of the “fill the jug, find the funnel, then pour into the car” syndrome. A major pain on even a good day. So, I think in the short term, we are limited to selling WVO by the jug, as simply oil, to avoid being accused of selling a “motor fuel”.