quote:

Originally posted by john galt:

quote:

... wvo/yellow grease prices are extremely high right now. ..Add fuel tax and you're close to or over where diesel is right now..

If this image is your way of congratulating me for discovering that wvo sold as fuel wouldn't be economically viable right now, relax. I've known that for a long time. Just didn't want to be the one to drop the downer that it isn't possible thanks to that darn thing called economics.

Unless there's inclusion in a 'tax' incentive along with biodiesel, or a sudden spike in diesel prices, there would generally be a very slim and, apparently, unpredictable profit margin. Combined with the infrastructure costs it's a hard pitch for investors I believe.

quote:

wvo sold as fuel wouldn't be economically viable right now, relax. I've known that for a long time. Just didn't want to be the one to drop the downer that it isn't possible thanks to that darn thing called economics.

Unless there's inclusion in a 'tax' incentive along with biodiesel, or a sudden spike in diesel prices,

Although Clean and Green has suggested a path to creating a national infrastucture (region by region) which would require huge amounts of capital and clearly compete with the existing VO fuel community for wvo the one I am suggesting does not. Nor will it compete with the "oil companies" for revenue in a noticable or measuable manner. If it were to grow large enough it might....but the fact is it probably never will. It is a convenience to the VO community...and that is about it.

Buying yellow grease on the at the market price it is driven by speculation and then attempting to process it into fuel is not an option I am suggesting. THAT is clearly impractical.

Yellow Grease prices ARE extremely high right now...and fuel prices relativly low. Both prices will continue to fluctuate..but I am willing to bet that fuel prices will climb higher....much higher. And althogh a sudden spike in diesel prices is certainly possible I do not believe that it is neccesary for the success of THIS particular project. It might be required for a large scale centralized one based on selling large amounts of wvo to a market that of customers that doesnot exist to succeed. But that is not the project I am proposing.

And there actually IS a tax incentive.

quote:

You'll certainly need your 40 years business experience with this project, I can't imagine a more ambitious undertaking.

I have chosen to take on MUCH more ambitious projects than this in the past and suceeded. The project I am proposing isn't really all that complicated or difficult. Please try to keep the project I am proposing seerate from much more ambitious one that Clean and Green appears to be suggesting in an earlier post.

The US currently HAS private "VO depots" operated by private "backyard operators" who have more wvo than they need for their own use. They just are not organized well enough to be a dependable supply of quality wvo to those travelling far from their own home supplies. I am proposing a logical extension of the dis-organized proto-infrastructure that already exists..nothing more.

you folks should have a look at this ... something to think about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...feature=channel_page

http://www.ted.com Forget about the hybrid auto -- Shai Agassi says it's electric cars or bust if we want to impact emissions. His company, Better Place, has a radical plan to take entire countries oil-free by 2020.

Omar
www.omarsales.com

I've been thinking about something like this for a while...
More on a local scale though.

I.E.

Put together 100 "local" people and you can have your goal of a National Network.

WVO can only go so far. If one had enough cars on the road, then one'd need to also use SVO, and come up with a national SVO distribution network (which would benefit a lot of people).

It would have to be very much "above board". Pay all applicable taxes. Get all applicable credits.

What I was thinking was a small "specialty station"

SVO/WVO
B100
E85
+ ESPRESSO or something similar (recycling the waste coffee, of course).

Not really caring if I sold 50 gallons a day or 1000 gallons a day (design the business to make money off of the espresso and other things.

PAYPAL is ridiculous. Too high of fees. CASH sales (or perhaps credit/debit at the station). Actually, I used to love Credit & Debit cards, but I've gotten pretty down on them lately because of the 2-3% they just skim off of the top on every purchase, and then the "traps" they try to catch people in.

Oregon has a "no self service" law which might be a pain (hard to hire a person just to stand around and fill up one tank a day), but one might have to look at the law carefully. It may be "no self service gasoline", in which case cooking oil may not apply.

Ok.
The other thing that one might consider adding would be a barter system.
I.E.
Trade 100 gallons of clean VO in Oregon for 100 gallons of clean VO in Kansas, and etc. Such a bartering system might be tough to maintain, but would certainly help some of the traveling "grass roots" people.

If one could get some of the bands and bus people on board with the bater system, perhaps it could work, and then there might be fewer complaints of them driving through town cutting the tops off of people's collection barrels.

I suppose one would have to publish and encourage "leveling out" those who run surpluses vs those who run deficits.

quote:

Originally posted by roverhybrids:
how about we start with how much money someone will have to come up with to start one legal(most legal) station? I'm trying to do this in California right now and it just seems prohibitive.

Bit of a worry there.

Obviously there is LAND which can be very expensive in some places.
And, of course, with any business, it is all Location Location Location.

Put it in the middle of the desert in California, and you might be able to afford the land, but it wouldn't do much for people in the big metro areas.

As far as EPA, my idea is to really push the idea that it is COOKING OIL.

I.E. There should be no more stringent handling regulations than a bakery or a restaurant chain that buys in bulk... actually much less so since it is not being sold for human (or even animal) consumption.

As far as self-service (Oregon & New Jersey), I'd argue that it is no different than going to your favorite grocery store, and buying Veggie Oil by the gallon (or even 5 gallon containers).

-----------------

Anyway, maybe I'm a bit optimistic, but I'm thinking a low-volume setup with an above ground storage tank, and a simple pump that just measures gallons at a farm house might run a few thousand.

A small urban business, attached to another business (espresso, auto mechanics, used car sales, etc) shouldn't be too bad to add, and perhaps could also use above ground tanks.

You'd really only need to start thinking about laying out the cash if you jumped from a few hundred gallons a day to a few thousand gallons a day.

And, what's the thing about 9/10ths of a penny... most people don't even care about a WHOLE penny now.. .
Make it simple, $1 / gallon, $2 / gallon, $2.50 a gallon, etc. Then you can just count the gallons and multiply.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:

quote:

it's electric cars or bust if we want to impact emissions.

This is one of the best articles regarding that obvious conclusion.
http://autospeed.com/cms/title..._110155/article.html
Life cycle well-to-wheel analysis shows that BEV is the most efficient, and least environmentally damaging.

Interesting article.

The problem is that we don't have enough electricity to feed our current Electric needs without burning fossil fuels (Coal, Methane, etc).

And, in those states with an excess of hydro power, it is dang near impossible to build a new, large scale hydroelectric dam.

So,
If you chose to erect a windmill for every Electric car sold... one would actually be better off erecting the windmills and feeding them into the grid, displacing coal power, and still running the car off of gas/diesel/biodiesel. Why is it so windy in Nebraska, the "coal state"?

The one assumption in the comparisons, however, is that all the vehicles are super-efficient hybrid cars.

If you compare the new electric vehicles to Detroit Iron... you might just start wondering why the cars made by Dinosaur Companies drink Dinosaur Blood!!!!!!!!!! And, you could come up with very different conclusions.

The biggest effect we could have on our oil consumption is to change from the status quo of Detroit Dinosaurs and moving to the more efficient vehicles that people in almost every other country drive.

quote:

I've been thinking about something like this for a while...
More on a local scale though.

Good!
So do you live near any of the points marked on the map I posted?

quote:

WVO can only go so far. If one had enough cars on the road, then one'd need to also use SVO, and come up with a national SVO distribution network

That's not the intention of this project.
It might happne evnetually ... but only after svo becomes significantly less expensive than diesel fuel.

quote:

PAYPAL is ridiculous. Too high of fees.

Fees are actually quite low. It allows easy bookeeping, verifyable "cash flow", the ability to accept major credit cards, 24 hor self service, and the ability to refund retroactivly for cubees.

quote:

The other thing that one might consider adding would be a barter system.

I don't think most would want to do that. Compicates every thing else significantly.

quote:

Obviously there is LAND which can be very expensive in some places.
And, of course, with any business, it is all Location Location Location.

The amount fo land needed is extremely small. And there is no need to be in a high rent district. Considering there will be very few if any competition within 300 miles.

quote:

As far as EPA, my idea is to really push the idea that it is COOKING OIL.

THEY already accept that...the state and federal tax authorities do not however.

quote:

You'd really only need to start thinking about laying out the cash if you jumped from a few hundred gallons a day to a few thousand gallons a day.

A few hundred gallons a day (average) would be extremely remarkable.
I think a few thousand gallons a day is probably not going to happen.
At least not with the program I proposed.

John..unless you activly attempting to sidetrack yet another technical discussion posts intended for one person such as your last few are probably best sent as PMs.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

quote:

I've been thinking about something like this for a while...
More on a local scale though.

Good!
So do you live near any of the points marked on the map I posted?

I've got a house in Portland, OR, which is on your map.
But, I've been trying to decide whether to locate in Eugene, OR or Portland, OR.

I'd encourage taking people wherever they are, rather than staying too tied to the "grid", and perhaps adjust the grid to locations to reflect station locations, then recruit to fill in holes. And, don't be scared of asking people to take "shortcuts" off of the highways.

True, if one is going somewhere, it is handy to have a grid setup. Otherwise you might as well just drive an Electric Car in circles around your own house.

I suppose the question is whether you are selling to "locals", or people on "road trips".

If one was on a "road trip", say from Oregon to Washington DC, then one might choose a "unique route", but I'm not going 1000 miles out of my way either. However, it might not be enough to just put a station near a listed city, but to put it in a location with good grid-tie access.

For example, I was thinking of locating in West Portland, more of the "Yuppie" and probably Politically Active area of town... not sure if they'd go for 20+ yr old cars, but much more likely to go for "just fill it" than going around collecting and filtering oil.

However, in Portland, the better North/South, and East Bound freeway access would be located in North-East Portland, and probably a fairly industrial location. Not sure what the better overall sales would be.

I've tried to buy E-85. I've found a few stations, but I'm hardly willing to go 10 miles out of the way to pick it up. Perhaps Veggie Oil would be different.

quote:

A few hundred gallons a day (average) would be extremely remarkable.
I think a few thousand gallons a day is probably not going to happen.
At least not with the program I proposed.

Starting out, selling only Veggie Oil...
yeah, perhaps one would be happy to sell a tank-full per week.
Hardly a money making proposition.

If one sells Veggie, B100, and E85, perhaps one could sell quite a bit more, but then there would also be a lot more regulations.

But, for veggie oil,

Say, an average "local" car would have a 15 gallon tank.
An average car setup for "road trips" might have a 20-50 gallon tank.
And, a big Bus or Motorhome might have a 200-300 gallon tank, or more.

So... One Fill-up an hour (8 Fill-Ups a day) of 20 gallon tanks would be about 160 gallons a day.

It adds up very quickly.

But, then the question is how many vehicles is that supporting?

If I fill up once every 10 working days...

So... it would take about 80-100 local vehicles to require that 160 gallon a day sales.

Road trips, of course, eat up far more fuel, and put people far "out of their element", but for most people, they are a relatively rare occurrence.

Back to the 100 cars...
Say one is in a metro area of 1,000,000 people.
100 "Veggies" would be 1/10,000 cars, or about 0.01% of the population.

----------------

For Commercial Veggie to really take off, you will need to have a couple of stations in every major city. Perhaps 3-5 times the number of stations on the "map".

My goal this year is to convert a "dry sump" with veggie as lube. But, that will mean that I'll need to have access to clean veggie oil (or perhaps B100) wherever my car goes. But, perhaps that is getting a bit ahead of myself.

It will be great if we can stay on track
We are all over the place with this discussion
started " Beginning a national VO fuel "station" infractructure."
and now I see link to electric car ....and ...

What will be the pricing for the SVO ?
will that be a fix price or chnge with region or market ?
What investement are we talking about ?

Not sure how many have seen the underutilized www.fillup4free.com website. I haven't spent much time exploring the site but I have used the map on occasion to gauge the potential to meet with other WVO types in various destinations.

quote:

I suppose the question is whether you are selling to "locals", or people on "road trips".

The project I am proposing is aimed at providing wvo fuel to people far from home. There is however nothing preventing locals from purchasing it as well. Except of course that they can probably collect and process their own for a lot less.

quote:

Starting out, selling only Veggie Oil...
yeah, perhaps one would be happy to sell a tank-full per week.
Hardly a money making proposition.

Few businesse reach the "break even point" in the first year.
Nearly all that I have started have reached it in 6 months or less.
It is a gamble..and to use a poker term..not going "all in" is key to this.
Having enough experience in starting businesses is also key to making strategic decisions early on that provide for maximum flexibility. That flexibility is especially important in the early months of any new business since no one can predict with certainty what stuations one will have to cope with. This is one reason franchises are so popular among those that hav never started a business from "scratch" before. The cost of the guidance provided is small(or at least reasonable) compared to the cost of failure.

quote:

What will be the pricing for the SVO ? will that be a fix price or chnge with region or market ?

The price is entirely up to the depot owner and the customers.
I assume it will be a price that BOTH consider fair since both must agree to it for the transaction to take place. If the seller is asking too much the sale will not take place. If the customer is not willing to pay enough (for the enterprise to be worth continueing) the sale will not take place.
Like nearly everything else market forces will prevail. In the case of wvo however (futures) speculation will not drive up the price as it does with petroleum based fuels.

quote:

What investement are we talking about ?

The cost of the initial "facility" itself should be less than $1000.00. Much less if one has the skills to build it themselves. If one has to lease a location the cost should be around what it costs to rent a small long term storage space/locker.

The cost of liscencing will vary greatly from state to state. In my state it will be under $200. In others it might cost many times more.

Depending on the amount of risk you can tolerate and assets you currently have (to lose) the cost of insurance will be from $0 to $1,500 per year.

Add to that the cost of equipment to collect and process the wvo to the standard I stated earlier unless you already have that. For volumes of under 1000 gal per week this should be under $1000.

And of course I encourage small groups of individuals already collecting and processing wvo to band together to share the cost of investment, the work involved, and any eventual profits. Most of the cooperative collection/processing groups I have advised could easily produce an extra 300-500 gallons a week for resale.

It seems a few peole want to discuss the option of a completely "under the radar" system of depots..but not on a public (open) forum. Email me if you would like to join the private group I will start for this (with sufficient interest). My email link is in the signature lines below.

When your UVO travels take you thru Memphis, try to remember Elvis and daw.

For what it is worth is seems that what Dana is proposing in essence is rather simple- to link together WVO users who have enough excess oil they are willing to sell it. He is proposing that we dehumanize (not in a negative fashion) the informal transaction process, to make selling WVO acceptable. He proposes that rather than travelers individually contacting other WVO users through the multiple WVO forums and swapping telephone numbers and addresses and then trying to decide "how much can I ask for without seeming like a mooch" there be a central WVO4sale website that can take care of all that for you: as one has extra oil they input that amount to the website and then confirm an order and pick-up point in one easy session.

Sticking points for this inhuman method, in my humble opinion: setting quality control standards, setting a relatively uniform price in various regions, avoiding price gouging.

Just my $0.02

quote:

Sticking points for this inhuman method, in my humble opinion:

quote:

setting quality control standards,

This was addressed earlier in this discussion

quote:

These will be independent but affilliated re-fuelling points that would sell wvo which meets a set standard for prefiltering, dewatering, and maximum pour point(8 micron nominal/500ppm/40°F). The WVO available at these "WVO depots" will be spot checked on a regular basis to insure that these standard are being rigorously adhered to. From my experience producing large quantities of WVO meeting these standards is relatively easy.

quote:

setting a relatively uniform price in various regions

Again ..from an earlier post in this discussion.

quote:

Those owners will be independent and able to negotiate a price which they and potential customers feel is fair.

quote:

avoiding price gouging

If a fair price is not being charged no sales will take place. Why make the investment required to participate and then waste it by alienating your customers by charging more than they feel is fair?

It's a great idea... however

How many here on this list have a few hundred gallons a month to spare? I'm not talking about helping out the occasional vacation vegmobile, but to contribute to an ongoing commercial operation. Right now our family mileage has drastically been reduced since January. And since my supplier has been steady, I'm stock piling the extra oil and would have plenty to share/sell. But when our driving habits change again, I may be looking for more suppliers.

How many here would buy the clean/filtered/dewatered oil (at the right price) and give up the dirty work of finding a steady source/hauling/filtering/storing/etc? I know I would. If someone else is willing to do all the dirty work, I would only ask for them to deliver in bulk. Fill a 55gallon drum, store it in the garage and presto! I have my own fueling station without the mess or hassle.

Keep in mind, there is a big difference between selling to a select “brotherhood” and selling to the general public. The public demands regulation. And the government demands rules and fees.

Issues:
1) WVO Supply – Where is the extra going to come from?

2) WVO is not a fuel - Thus cannot be sold as a fuel, legally. We could simply add a large sign that would read "NOT TO BE USED AS AN AUTOMOBILE FUEL"

3) WVO must be tested to ensure quality - What should be included in these tests? All of us here to common tests such as particle filter and pan test for water. What other tests are needed? Acid and other contaminants? Was the oil simply filtered or C-fuged? Even here in AZ, Biodiesel suppliers had to jump through years of hoops. Selling to the "brotherhood", you are simply trusting that the seller has sufficiently de-watered the oil. Think of the consequences if that is not true. What would be your recourse?

4) Sales by volume are regulated and tested to ensure the consumer is getting what they pay for (Oh, and there is fee for this). If sold using a pumping mechanism, this device must be NTEP approved. If sold in a cube, the volume or weight must be at or greater than stated.

I think the first step is to come up with quality standards for the oil itself. Then when we share locally or with the passing vegmobile, we are all confident that the oil is safe to use.

I’m all for the idea of having “WVO-Depot” cages. I just think we have a long way to go.

Lots of good points.

It sounds like it would need some kind of an organization like the NBB...
Say the NVB

As you mentioned, set "standards"
Setup a centralized testing service.
Setup testing guidelines (test from nozzle, test from bottom of tank, etc).
Probably do random testing... for example, shoot somebody an e-mail.... "Go Out and Pull a sample from your "sale tank", and send it in".

Also, setup a feedback system, and a method for dealing with negative feedback.

Local and Federal Taxes are a tricky issue. I believe the oil should be tax exempt, but one had better setup the accounting to pay state and federal fuel taxes, as well as applying for tax credits (assuming they are applicable). Perhaps also organizing some effort to lobby for formal recognition of veggie oil as a fuel, and for any tax wavers and tax credits. Maybe apply for Federal Grants for EPA studies.

I still think there would be benefits of encouraging "co-op members" to buy into a barter system. Not requiring it, of course, but encouraging it. That might help out with the fear of price gouging. Although, I guess "savy" people might realize that if they are selling the oil for $2 / gallon (including taxes), and are cruising through Nebraska and find someone selling it for 75 cents a gallon... they might choose not to use their barter points.

quote:

Originally posted by keelec:
Lots of good points.

It sounds like it would need some kind of an organization like the NBB...
Say the NVB

As you mentioned, set "standards"
Setup a centralized testing service.
Setup testing guidelines (test from nozzle, test from bottom of tank, etc).
Probably do random testing... for example, shoot somebody an e-mail.... "Go Out and Pull a sample from your "sale tank", and send it in".

Also, setup a feedback system, and a method for dealing with negative feedback.

These also are good points.

One question leaps to mind... Who is going to do all this work and who is going to pay for them to do it? As you rightly point out, taxes will be another issue as will local councils allowing large scale processing operations and the list goes on.

This idea is all well and good in theory but in practice I can't see many people too keen to put in the effort and investment required when a break even let alone any sort of profit is such a far from certain proposition though I could be wrong.

Hands up the people that would be happy to put in the monetary investment ( min $1000) have a suitable location they can conduct their operations from, have the spare oil and the time to process it and are ok with jumping through the hoops to be able to do this?

What would all this time and investment be worth to you and what would you therefore want for your oil if you were selling it on a commercial like ongoing basis to people that wanted to use you as a one off or permanent supplier?

quote:

It sounds like it would need some kind of an organization like the NBB...

Possibly...but I don't think it would need much of an organization. More like a "cooperative" with a central clearing house.

quote:

As you mentioned, set "standards"
Setup a centralized testing service.
Setup testing guidelines (test from nozzle, test from bottom of tank, etc).
Probably do random testing... for example, shoot somebody an e-mail.... "Go Out and Pull a sample from your "sale tank", and send it in".

I think a random sampling of the fuel actually sold would be better. Random customers could be asked to send in a sample when they pre-purchase the fuel by the central clearing house..which woudl then test it. A small incentive like a $5 coupon could help encourage participation. Each "depot" would have a "5 star rating" which would be visible to customers when choosing who to purchase fuel from. Each sample that did not meet the standard would cost a star. Lose all five and you are removed from the central website.

quote:

Also, setup a feedback system, and a method for dealing with negative feedback.

Absolutely!

quote:

Keep in mind, there is a big difference between selling to a select “brotherhood” and selling to the general public.

I prefer to think of it as "the VO fuel community".
And providing THE BEGINNING of a national infrastructure to provide THAT community with a reliable source of "standard" WVO fuel when they travel far from thier OWN supply is all I intended for this discussion to be about.

Some have apparrently thought it is about creating a system of stations similar to existing gas stations...but THAT is NOT what I am proposing. Even THAT infrastructure began with a very simple ..almost informal..network of individuals with "spare fuel" they were willing to sell to those travelling from city to city on the existing horse and buggy trails. I agree that the complexity and cost of starting up a national infrastructure of stations similar to existing "gas stations" is too expensive and complext to consider. In fact I do not think it may be desirable for several other reasons. Which is why it is NOT what I am proposing.

It appears that the greatest interest is among those who want to try to try this "completely under the radar" at first. Obviously discussing this on an open forum is not possible. I am trying to determine how to create a way to discuss that which allows complete anonymity. To those that have emailed me regarding that discussion ..please bear wiht me..I need to contact someone more knowledgable on that than I am. If anyone has suggestions on how to do that..please email them to me.