quote:

Originally posted by Omar:

coolant-heated veggie filter from VegPower Systems in Ithaca, New York. It uses standard fuel filters available from NAPA, Baldwin, Wix, Donaldson, etc

www.southerngrease.com/project220d.htm



Omar
www.omarsales.com

Thats a good looking unit....

use a injection line heater to heat your wvo filter...
http://www.fattywagon.com/install%20page.htm




another heated filter

http://www.southerngrease.com

Omar
www.omarsales.com

Now that looks a bit too "delicate"

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by danalinscott:
...I would like to see a bit more discussion on the actual requirements of a heated filter.

I personally believe that in most cases they simply have to be "self thawing" if a FPHE is used to heat VO fuel passing on to them. This really does not take all that much energy. And if one subscribes to the "warm the engine before switching to VO fuel" a simple coolant wrap is usually more than suffcient for this IMO.

quote:

Let me paint a picture here. Engine is up to temp. Outside temp below freezing. WVO in FPHE just prior to filter or heated filter head has veg up to temp. veg in filter proper is still "cold" because of no fuel flow through veg line "yet". Now, the valve is opened and "cold" veg goes out of filter into IP

I live in a place it gets very cold Carl. Coolant wrapped filters have provided more than enough available heat to warm the VO in them..which is required to "thaw" them....or liquify the VO inside them. And since the line to the point where the two fuel systems meet is also heated I doubt that there is much of a chance on my conversions for a cold oil IP catastrophe.

But perhaps we should start another discussion on this since Omar apparrently intends this one to be used mainly to provide examples of various heated filters.

Personally, I think the ultimate svo filter setup would have a FPHE plumbed just before a regular remote oil filter mount with a spin on element. On the element, I'd have a VFS band heater (Yes, VFS. I haven't seen Toms yet).

Just after the filter output, I'd have a temp probe that controlled the band heater so that after the element was thawed and the HE had hot veggie flowing, the band heater would be turned off. This way you get instant heat, with no wasted Watts after things get moving.

Of course, I'd definately have another FPHE or Vegtherm near the IP as insurance.

I tried to explain this system to Larry at VFS but didn't seem to see my point. He thought I was worried about lack of heat, or overheating the veggie or something.

Adding a cheap control module on the output of an electric unit changes everything. No more wasted power.

Insulating the band is definately a plan too. In very cold temps, the control module would keep the band cooking as needed, perhaps occasionally coming on to supplement the FPHE that would feed hot veg into the spin-on.



---No wasted power.
---Instant heat.
---Easy filter changes.
---Looks great.
---Overdrawn Visa card.

If the FPHE is built directly in the head, like the Frybrid, the heat of the FPHE is conducted to the oil in the filter element thawing it and electric heat wouldn't be needed. Remember CONDUCTED heat travels both up and down. It's only convective heat that flows up only.

The main FPHE should then be after the filter as close to the IP as possible to get the oil as close to coolant temperature as possible.

"Omar" gave us a link stating the following:

_____________________________

The current draw is about 8 amps / 100 watts. We recommend a contact area of about 4-6" on each injector line. Our 30" 100 watt heater will work on most 4 thru 6 cylinder cars with displacements of up to 3.5 liters (3500cc).
______________________________

With ohms-law etc we can use the following:

"8AMPS/100W"v that is:

I=(W/V) where V=12V and I=8 giving us V=100/8 = 12.5 Volts. Voila!

Our 30" 100 watt heater will work on most 4 thru 6 cylinder cars

Will give us:

W(per feet)=V^2/(L^2 x R(per feet)) that gives us
100=12^2/(L^2 x R(per feet))

R(per feet)=(12^2)/(30^2 x 100)= 0.0016 Ohm/feet

1.6 milliOhm/feet is about 40.64 Ohms/meter

What is the Ohm for the assheater wire in the front seat ( per meter or feet)?

You can double it or cut it in twice to get the right Ohms that gives you the right heat! Just use a simple multimeter!!!!

(In this post I used "PRISM" dictionary Swe-Eng - is/are something obvious wrong _ post me)


/Bosse
Sweden

quote:

Originally posted by welder:
Personally, I think the ultimate svo filter setup would have a FPHE plumbed just before a regular remote oil filter mount with a spin on element. On the element, I'd have a VFS band heater (Yes, VFS. I haven't seen Toms yet).

Just after the filter output, I'd have a temp probe that controlled the band heater so that after the element was thawed and the HE had hot veggie flowing, the band heater would be turned off. This way you get instant heat, with no wasted Watts after things get moving.

Of course, I'd definately have another FPHE or Vegtherm near the IP as insurance.

I tried to explain this system to Larry at VFS but didn't seem to see my point. He thought I was worried about lack of heat, or overheating the veggie or something.

Adding a cheap control module on the output of an electric unit changes everything. No more wasted power.

Insulating the band is definately a plan too. In very cold temps, the control module would keep the band cooking as needed, perhaps occasionally coming on to supplement the FPHE that would feed hot veg into the spin-on.



---No wasted power.
---Instant heat.
---Easy filter changes.
---Looks great.
---Overdrawn Visa card.

Welder,Im looking forward to showing my electric heater. Just waiting for them to be made-should be a couple more weeks. I plan on adding a surface mount temp sensor that will shut the electric heater off at 170 or so.

quote:

The main FPHE should then be after the filter as close to the IP as possible to get the oil as close to coolant temperature as possible.

Yah, On the 300SD I got the oil output of my FPHE about 6" from the lift pump...Barely had room to put a in-line filter between the FPHE and lift pump.

quote:

The main FPHE should then be after the filter as close to the IP as possible to get the oil as close to coolant temperature as possible.

I really hate to put any heat adding component on the IP side of the final filter element with one exception. Coolant heated line. With the engine warming and warming coolant circulating through the heated VO lines the VO in them tends warm to very near the temp of the coolant. So once the engine is warm enough to switch to VO safely the VO poised in the last bit of (heated) VO line at the point where the two fuels "meet" prior to the IP is as warm as it would be if it were sitting in a FPHE (since the VO is not "moving" prior to that point but coolant is). Using a heated VO line from the filter to the "fuel meeting point" allows more freedom in FPHE placement without any more danger of a slug of "cold VO" being sent to the IP upon switchover in cold weather.

Dana, you dont have to reply to this as I know you are "boycotting" me, but you said

"I really hate to put any heat adding component on the IP side of the final filter"

And why is that? I suspect it is becasue you fear debris flaking off the innards of a FPHE not getting caught by a filter. Valid point. But that can be alleviated by those small inline
fuel filter.

Anyway in theory what your saying works but may not be practical in all cases. You are talking about pairing up the VO line with coolant line up to where the "two fuels meet"(i.e solenoid). Sometimes there just isnt enough room to partner up lines like that, especially near the IP. Witness the countless pictures of standalone VO lines. If one can connect the supply solenoid valve directly to the FPHE and on the line from the solenoid to the IP/liftpump have an inline filter, you have alleviated this concern and prevented the slug of cold VO as there is practically no distance between the FPHE and valve.

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Yaz:
Dana, you dont have to reply to this as I know you are "boycotting" me, but you said

"I really hate to put any heat adding component on the IP side of the final filter"

And why is that? I suspect it is becasue you fear debris flaking off the innards of a FPHE not getting caught by a filter. Valid point. But that can be alleviated by those small inline
fuel filter.

Anyway in theory what your saying works but may not be practical in all cases. You are talking about pairing up the VO line with coolant line up to where the "two fuels meet"(i.e solenoid). Sometimes there just isnt enough room to partner up lines like that, especially near the IP. Witness the countless pictures of standalone VO lines. If one can connect the supply solenoid valve directly to the FPHE and on the line from the solenoid to the IP/liftpump have an inline filter, you have alleviated this concern and prevented the slug of cold VO as there is practically no distance between the FPHE and valve.

Not "boycotting you" at all Tom.

I agree is is easy to add an inline filter..but don't see the point in placing a FPHE after a filter ..and then adding a filter. Seems counterproductive and requires that TWO heated filters be used.

In my experience using a heated line right up to the "tie in point" is not all that difficult..especially HOH lines.

Tom, check yer PM
MJ

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

Not "boycotting you" at all Tom.

I agree is is easy to add an inline filter..but don't see the point in placing a FPHE after a filter ..and then adding a filter. Seems counterproductive and requires that TWO heated filters be used.

In my experience using a heated line right up to the "tie in point" is not all that difficult..especially HOH lines.

Sorry Dana, I was thinking of this quote you made on Frybrid and I didnt want you to have to break your vow:

"I have dealt with Tom as well. The dealing left me with resolved to never deal with him again on any project, transaction, or discussion. He owns/is one of the three or four VO related businesses I feel have little hope of providing something positive for the VO community...ever. "

I didnt want to have to make you break your vow.
But if your opinion of me has changed, all the better, then we can carry on a direct exchange.

Anyway on the second inline filter I am talking about the filter outlined in blue in this pic. It obviously does not need heating. And after all when the car is purged and on diesel it is filled with..diesel..

inlinefilter.JPG (26 KB, 63 downloads)

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Yaz:

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

Not "boycotting you" at all Tom.

I agree is is easy to add an inline filter..but don't see the point in placing a FPHE after a filter ..and then adding a filter. Seems counterproductive and requires that TWO heated filters be used.

In my experience using a heated line right up to the "tie in point" is not all that difficult..especially HOH lines.

Sorry Dana, I was thinking of this quote you made on Frybrid and I didnt want you to have to break your vow:

"I have dealt with Tom as well. The dealing left me with resolved to never deal with him again on any project, transaction, or discussion. He owns/is one of the three or four VO related businesses I feel have little hope of providing something positive for the VO community...ever. "

I didnt want to have to make you break your vow.
But if your opinion of me has changed, all the better, then we can carry on a direct exchange.

Anyway on the second inline filter I am talking about the filter outlined in blue in this pic. It obviously does not need heating. And after all when the car is purged and on diesel it is filled with..diesel..

Sorry Tom ...I forgot why I had that opinion.
Thanks for reminding me.

Hi Dana.

I know that Tom already beat me to this point, but when I described the filter setup, I forgot to mention the little in line filter. I see them mentioned here so often, I just overlooked it, I guess.

Please understand that my latest response had nothing to do with your current situation with Tom. I wasn't choosing sides, I just forgot to mention the tiny filter. I also never mentioned any valve. To me, they're pretty much both implied.

Because the mesh pores of the little screen filter are so much larger than the pores of the primary filter, I wouldn't even bother trying to heat the little one. Have you found that they restrict flow if unheated?

Although you may think the use of these little filters to be silly, consider that the inner core of many spin on filters may likely be either bare steel or zinc galvanized steel. I noticed that the shells on the popular Amsoil 2 micron bypass filters are internally coated with a zinc bearing alloy.

If the perforated support core is also coated likewise, the same grey crud that often forms on zinc alloy Goldenrod tank filter heads may also form inside the support core where it is free to peel away and sail downstream into your IP and injectors. I wager that many other filter shells and cores may also be zinc coated as it's one of the cheapest ways to prevent rust.

I think the little filters are cheap insurance. I've seen them come in stainless as well.

Even if a guy were to argue that filters weren't installed long enough for significant vegpoly formation to develop, who can honestly say that they regularly inspect and/or clean the interior of the steel pipe nipple in their aluminum filter head. Not everyone dewaters thoroughly enough to guarantee the steel nipple won't develop vegpoly inside it over many filter changes.

When it comes to damage prevention, I say affordable overkill beats standard measures. Paranoid perhaps, but what's the harm? A few extra bucks?



Hi Ron.

Convective heat also goes down.

The idea that heat rises relates to gravity acting on the cooler air that surrounds hot air rising off of something. Smoke is a good example. The cooler air that is beside or below a fire is heavier than the air that is heated by the fire.

When I say heavier, I mean the hot air is less dense, so the surrounding cooler air is empowered by gravity to forcefully displace the hot air.

Personally I think it's more appropriate to say that "cold sinks", since gravity is acting on both the hot and cold air equally. The gravitational constant hasn't changed, only the densities have.

Anyone arguing against this opinion need only consider that in zero G, flames roll free, they don't rise. Therefore gravity is the more significant effect over temperature.

Cold sinks, heat doesn't rise. Zero G flames prove it.

More accurately, on non-solid matter, gravity exerts greater effect on like material of higher density.

Small point, I know...

Anyway, all that was meant to lead up to this:

In hydraulic environments, thermodynamics dictates that convective heat may flow wherever it pleases. Agreed, it mostly flows up, due to due to gravity working on differential of density, but in an enclosed or semi-enclosed vessel, convective heat rolls all over. Ever watched a pot of water boil? It rolls.

The useful point is that a hose wrap costs less than $5 and provides conductive heat directly to where it's needed. Once that heat is conducted through the filter shell and into the adjacent oil, the oil is captive in an enclosed vessel and is free to rise up the shells inner surface and roll down the pleated filter media. This rolling turbulence likely speeds concuction through the oil somewhat.

I'm not dissagreeing with you on the practicality of employing a sandwitch style HE, I'm only saying that I think a VW oil cooler compliments a hose wrap nicely, that's all.



Hi Tom.

I'd go with an in line temp probe rather than a surface mounted unit. I'm thinking that since oil temp is what counts, that's what to measure.

Basically, I'd be afraid of the filter shell conducting heat so efficiently, that it gave a false reading of adequate temp before the oil inside was hot into the deepest folds of the pleats. Steel transfers heat faster than oil.

If the probe was in a small manifold about 6 inches downstream from the filter outlet, you'd be getting a pretty accurate indication of oil temp. Of course, I'd insulate the 6" of hose between the oil outlet and the probe manifold. Two inches after the manifold, I'd resume HIH, TIH or HOH.

Just an idea. That's all.

quote:

Hi Tom.

I'd go with an in line temp probe rather than a surface mounted unit. I'm thinking that since oil temp is what counts, that's what to measure.

Basically, I'd be afraid of the filter shell conducting heat so efficiently, that it gave a false reading of adequate temp before the oil inside was hot into the deepest folds of the pleats. Steel transfers heat faster than oil.

If the probe was in a small manifold about 6 inches downstream from the filter outlet, you'd be getting a pretty accurate indication of oil temp. Of course, I'd insulate the 6" of hose between the oil outlet and the probe manifold. Two inches after the manifold, I'd resume HIH, TIH or HOH.

Just an idea. That's all.

Yeah thats the ideal, I would much rather have
a probe actually measuring the oil in or just downstream from the filter. For cost reasons, dont want to use a whole probe/guage setup, but
rather a snap disk type arrangement. My real intention is to prevent the oil from overheating due to forgetting to shut the heater off as a safety device. So what I really want is a small probe type snap disc that shuts off at a high temp of say around 200F. And one that requires a manual reset. If the oil gets to around 200f Im thinking the driver has accidently left it on. Dont want to have this
snap disc automatically reset becasue even though it would prevent a fire, it would cause the battery to drain down. Not sure if 200F is the right temp...Any suggestions where I can get one of these? I have found several but not in the right configuration..

quote:

Because the mesh pores of the little screen filter are so much larger than the pores of the primary filter, I wouldn't even bother trying to heat the little one. Have you found that they restrict flow if unheated?

In cold climates or with high Melt Point WVO yes..they like any unheated line will plug until it is warm enough for the wvo in it to liquify.

I do not personally consider the small inline mesh/screen units a true filter. They WILL prevent large "chunks" from passing though. I prefer a 10 micron or finer filter to be the last component that VO passes through (other than gently heated fuel line) before moving on to the "fuel line "join point". I know some consider me to be to be overcautious though. That's a "cross" I can easily bear.

I believe that (as a rule) a simple coolant hose wrap around the filter element body can provide enough heat to allow the VO inside the filter body to warm sufficiently by the time the engine is warm enough to safely switch to VO fuel. I beleive this because I tested this before releasing the free how to file on making one. But perhaps it is time to do more comparative testing as there are so many more options than there were before.

As far as sides...
My opinion of Tom HAS changed to a more positive one regarding developing his own products. He still enjoys fanning the embers of old animosity a bit too much for my taste however. I don't think there are "sides" on that subject. Nearly everyone wants to see this forum remain on topic and as flame free as possible.

I can understand why Tom felt I was "boycotting" him but I am happy to respond to anyone who chooses to remain on topic and civil. This includes Tom. I don't think that Tom and I are on "different sides". I only think that we have a past history which we BOTH need to be very careful to keep in the past if discussions are not to be sidetracked into personal spats.

http://www.votechusa.com/system.htm


have a good read
Omar
www.omarsales.com

http://www.fossilfreefuel.com/home.htm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sQwccnH3KM

Our Generation on the history channel does a piece on a company in Pittsburgh that converts diesels to run on waste vegetable oil.
Fossil Free Fuel

www.fossilfreefuel.com

great clip
Omar
www.omarsales.com