This was just posted on the Frybrid Forum - guy with a Vegistroke conversion on his 6.0 Ford had an injector meltdown, ended up with 12 quarts of WVO in his engine oil, finally got the verdict on why the injectors failed:

"If any of you are still following the saga of my injector replacement, here is where the story gets a lot more interesting.
Janathan at Swamps diesel emailed me and basically said it was indeed fuel related and not just poor injectors. He said the inside where the fuel contacts the metal was pitted and corroded from something very caustic, NOT from vegi oil though....from something that was in my vegi oil.
I collected twice from the dumpster and the rest of the time i collected straight from the fryer to the 5 gallon cubies.
So it had to be the dumpster oil that i picked up that had something in it besides just oil. Now we are going to find out what it was that contaminated that oil. Johnathan suspects a cleaning agent maybe used to clean the grills and fryers. Those agents are very caustic and may have been dumped into the grease dumpster. A sample of the oil that was in my tank is being tested as i type this and they are looking specifically for chemicals like sodium hydroxide (lye), tri-sodium phosphate, chlorine or ammonia compounds - all chemicals that can be found in cleaning agents. Once we see what exactly is in the oil, i can check with the place i collect oil from and find out what they use to clean fryers and grills with and ask if they have ever dumped these cleaning agents in there dumpster. If this all pans out the mystery will be solved as to why this all happened.
I was sure it was related to poor injectors by design or the added power mod but the proofs in the puddin.
I will abandon my quest to make ford pay for my repairs....there injectors weren't the culprit, bad oil was...what can i say.
So let this be a lesson to anyone that collects oil from a dumpster. I'll never get mine that way again, I promise you that. That 300 gallons i got from there dumpster cost me $3,000.00 and now i have 200 gallons of it in the garage i have to take and dispose of and start a fresh collection."

We recommend that you persuade the restaurant to put the oil back into the jugs it came in, to lessen the chance of getting harmful substances, including water, into your fuel tank.

Craig

Very good point. One of my potential WVO sources from many months ago had a similar scenario. The GM of the establishment, who is a friend of mine, asked that the oil be put back in the cubbies after being drained into an industrial receptacle and allowed to cool. Very high quality stuff, changed every one to two days. Many establishments prefer to drain the oil hot and use a cleaning agent because this makes cleaning the fryers easier. Well, it turns out, that the cleaning agent was also being drained into the same receptacle. Glad I found out before collecting.

Will mist washing wash out the cleaning agents?

I certainly don't know the answer to that, but perhaps somebody does. I think it is potentially a very important issue for those running WVO.

quote:

Originally posted by 123or124?:
Will mist washing wash out the cleaning agents?

They tend to be water soluble.
So yes..probably.

It is also possible that cavitation was partially or totally responsible for that damage. Cavitation damage is often mistaken for "etching or corrosion caused by acids or other common corrosive agents in post repair reports. This is mainly because cavitation is not nearly as well known as other forms of possible damage....and so is not considered by many mechanics/technicians as a possible cause.

I don't understand how it would have ended up in the oil. Wouldn't any cleaning agents settle out of the oil?

Consider how hard it is to fully remove all traces of water from oil. Even the slightest presence of oil can contain the caustic cleaner.

One of my regular sources moved and hired new workers. I noticed that the oil smelled differenly. Then I noticed most of the drum was water. Sure enough, they dumped the rinse water with the oil.

It was so caustic the oil cleaned the stainless steel suction wand I use. Until I can run a basic titration I'm not even considering running this oil in my truck.

I will neutralize it though, probably with Acetic acid (vinegar).

Todd

Interesting. There was a similar situation posted on TDS a year ago HERE.
Oddly the same injector shop was involved too...

Unfortunately the oil was never analyzed to find out what the contaminant was.

quote:

Originally posted by fchu007:
Very good point. One of my potential WVO sources from many months ago had a similar scenario. The GM of the establishment, who is a friend of mine, asked that the oil be put back in the cubbies after being drained into an industrial receptacle and allowed to cool. Very high quality stuff, changed every one to two days. Many establishments prefer to drain the oil hot and use a cleaning agent because this makes cleaning the fryers easier. Well, it turns out, that the cleaning agent was also being drained into the same receptacle. Glad I found out before collecting.

My source has been pouring back into the cubies, but the owner has just purchased a new 30 gal drum with welded pour spout just above cubie height. He want's his cooks to pour in hot at night and fill the cubies for me in the morning. Yes the drum is inside the restaurant! I'll be sure to be clear with him about caustic cleaners in my drum. Thanks.

Cant draw any conclusions from this info with out knowig how he washed and dewatered the oil. This thread does though serve the purpose educating folk to work with resturant to make sure no wash fluids or the likes get into the drums, cubbies etc.

Is there a quick and easy way to test the dumpster grease (before collecting) for lye, detergent and other caustic or acidic substances?

quote:

Originally posted by canolafunola:
Is there a quick and easy way to test the dumpster grease (before collecting) for lye, detergent and other caustic or acidic substances?

Yes a mini-mistwash with a small jar, add equal parts water and VO, shake lightly. Then take some of the water on the bottom, and test for PH. Make sure you have no VO in the water you test, it causes false neutral readings on a PH strip or meter.

I soon will start testing this same way with a total dissolved solids meter, which I think will show if there is any amount of sugars or salts which also could be a problem.

titrating will tell you how much acid is in the oil.

quote:

Originally posted by im6under:
titrating will tell you how much acid is in the oil.

Titrating will tell you how much FFA is in the oil. No one has determined FFA to be a problem in WVO. FFA are not corrosive like water soluble acids, I think it was Dana who did some tests on that.

I find it very difficult to believe that the oil is contaminated with something so caustic that only 300 gallons would eat injectors. Most restaruants use a "Grill brick" to clean the grill and the chemicals used in the food service industry are formulated to be non-reative to metals to avoid damage to the equipment and to avoid possible poisioning. A typical oven and grill cleaner has a grade like this:

HAZARD MATERIAL INFORMATION SYSTEM (U.S.A.)

Health - 3
Fire hazard - 0
Reactivity - 0
Personal protection - C

While I encourage you to have the oil tested, I also encourage you to look at other possible causes. In a study I read from the early 80's one test engine failed due to buildup on the injector tips which was traced to high levels of cirtic acid in the oil which formed deposits on the injector seat. It seems that extremely high levels of citric acid had been added as a preservative when lab tech became over enthusiastic with his measurments.

The Cummins factory tech I speak to tells me that Cummins does not advise biodiesel for use with thier engines because some of the injection system components are coated with a coating high in Zinc and tests have shown that biodiesel will remove the coating exposing the metal to an enviroment which is corosive to it - he could not be more specific.

The Ford guy I call for information has indicated that he would suspect diesel fuel with poor lubricity or water in the fuel, it seems that since the injectors themselves presurize the fuel in a PSD and Caterpillar engine, that cavitation can occur on the injector. He specifies that no more than 15,000 miles be run on a fuel filter and says that there are many aftermarket filters which do not fit properly and allow fuel to bypass the filter.

While unrelated to your particular issue it is noteworthy that the 1994 to 1997 PSD's had an air cleaner cover which was unreliable and let dirt past the air filter. The improved air filter top uses metal hold down nuts. If you have plastic hold-downs you should get the improved assembly. These same engines were also produced with an orange rubber connector hose to the turbo. Many people have experienced a stalling of their engines under full power when this orange hose sucked flat and cut off all air to the engine - or sucked into the turbo and destroyed it. Ford has a revised hose, which is much sturdier and black and comes with a modified aluminum coupler. 99 PowerStrokes came with an air filter with the intake in the driver’s side inner fender. This filter system could suck in snow or water and plug the filter. Ford revised this filter to make less suction and later came up with a new system, which takes air from the front.

I find it interesting that both reports of this type of damage came from the same shop and were on injectors from the same vehicle type. I also could not find any refference to the "12 quarts of WVO in his engine oil" but this in itself may be an indication of somethign far more serious. How in the world did 3 gallons (nearly a cubie) of VO get into his engine oil, I am fairly sure that the engine oil pan will not hold it's oil as well as 3 gallons of VO. So did he have only 3 gallons of VO in the oil pan and no motor oil? Where did the engine oil go? How did the oil from his fuel system get into the crankcase, I can promise you that 3 gallons of VO did not bypass the rings. Since the injectors are oil driven (actually compress the fuel to injection pressure using engine oil) I would suspect that the O-ring in the pressure side of the injector failed allowing cross contamination - however the fuel system is only running at 75 psi +/- and the oil which operates the injectors is much higher so I would have expected to see oil in the fuel and since his system is dead headed it would not ahve gone back to the VO fuel tank at all..... How did 3 gallons of VO get in the crankcase oil and were was it because the pan and crankcase would nto hold an additional 3 gallons?????

quote:

Titrating will tell you how much FFA is in the oil. No one has determined FFA to be a problem in WVO. FFA are not corrosive like water soluble acids, I think it was Dana who did some tests on that.

It was my understanding you could also titrate for soluable acids...


Determination of Acetic Acid Content of Vinegar
by Dr. Walter Scharf and Dr. Charles Malerich
Natural Sciences, Baruch College
New York, NY 10010

Introduction: Vinegar can be defined as a solution composed of acetic acid (HC2H3O2), water, and, perhaps, other substances. To be sold in stores as vinegar, this solution must contain at least four grams of acetic acid per 100 ml of solution.

The objective of this experiment is to measure the total acid concentration in a specific brand of vinegar and to determine if the vinegar meets the minimum acetic acid content specified by commercial law. Also the percent acetic acid will be calculated to test the authenticity of the total acidity declared on the vinegar's label.

The method used to measure the total acidity of the vinegar being studied is an analytical
chemistry technique called an acid-base titration. A titration mixes two solutions which contain reactants for a known chemical reaction under conditions such that:
a) the point at which both reactants have been completely consumed by the known reaction can be detected (end point)
b) the amount of one reactant can be calculated from the known concentration of reactant
in a standard solution, the volume of standard solution used, and the balanced known chemical equation.

For an acid-base titration, the known chemical reaction in general is:
acid + base → water + salt (1)
and for the titration of the vinegar in this experiment the following specific reaction will be used to calculate the acetic acid content of the vinegar sample:
HC2H3O2(aq) + NaOH(aq) H2O(l) + NaC2H3O2(aq). (2)
Sodium hydroxide will be the standard reactant solution for this titration, and acetic acid the
calculated unknown reactant.

The end point in this experiment will be detected with an acid/base indicator. An
acid/base indictor is a colored substance with two or more different colors depending on the
value of the pH of the solution. Indicators are also very weak acids or bases and react with
added acid or base if no other base or acid is present in a solution. Phenolphthalein is the
indicator used in this experiment, and phenolphthalein is colorless in acid and neutral solutions but is red in basic solutions. The phenolphthalein will change color with the addition of a single drop of sodium hydroxide if no other acid (acetic acid for this experiment) is present in the
phenolphthalein-sodium hydroxide solution.
Another important concept in this experiment is concentration. Concentration refers to the composition of a solution and may be expressed as either the ratio of solute/solvent or solute/
solution. Two units of concentration expressing the latter ratio are:
Molarity(M)=moles of solute/liters of solution (3)and % by mass=(mass of solute/mass of solution)×100%.
(4)Molarity is a convenient laboratory unit that delivers for a measured the volume of solution a known number of solute molecules (i.e. moles of solute).

Percent is a familiar concept to most Scharf and Malerich, Acetic Acid Content of Vinegar, 2
people and for this reason percent by mass is used on many labels. Both of these units will be
used in this experiment.

quote:

Originally posted by cgoodwin:

I find it interesting that both reports of this type of damage came from the same shop and were on injectors from the same vehicle type. I also could not find any refference to the "12 quarts of WVO in his engine oil" but this in itself may be an indication of somethign far more serious. How in the world did 3 gallons (nearly a cubie) of VO get into his engine oil, I am fairly sure that the engine oil pan will not hold it's oil as well as 3 gallons of VO. So did he have only 3 gallons of VO in the oil pan and no motor oil? Where did the engine oil go? How did the oil from his fuel system get into the crankcase, I can promise you that 3 gallons of VO did not bypass the rings. Since the injectors are oil driven (actually compress the fuel to injection pressure using engine oil) I would suspect that the O-ring in the pressure side of the injector failed allowing cross contamination - however the fuel system is only running at 75 psi +/- and the oil which operates the injectors is much higher so I would have expected to see oil in the fuel and since his system is dead headed it would not ahve gone back to the VO fuel tank at all..... How did 3 gallons of VO get in the crankcase oil and were was it because the pan and crankcase would nto hold an additional 3 gallons?????

Hi Chris,

Here's his first post on the subject - and he says there were 10 extra quarts in there - not the 12 I'd remembered:

10-11-2006, 10:32 AM

new2VOfuels
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 939

"Trucks in the shop, loss of power, buckin like a horse, dies alot.
The Tech. is kinda a friend of a friend and he saw my truck Sunday at his house, scanned it while driving, said one injector (at least) was what it looked like and an ICP sensor...oh and EGR valve. This all from scan codes i guess.
Today he calles me and says he pulled the valve cover and it smelled like a turkey fryer. Drained the oil and there was an extra 10 quarts or so in there and it was sticky and thick but normal color. Vegi oil in the crank case...lots of it. Tested 4 injectors, all are leaking down. Suspecs the other 4 are too but hasn't tested them yet."

As far as what ate his injectors, he reported today on the Frybrid Forum that he's having his oil analyised, so we'll know soon, I guess. All I know is, no dumpster-diving for me.

Craig

I had a situation where somebody had apparently done some cleaning to their fryers. It was a Mexican place, that I had collected at for months, and was always bone dry and really clean. One day I went to get oil, and I noticed it was going through the pump like wildfire. Plus it stunk to high heaven. Pulled out the nozzle and realized I was pumping rancid water. That was the last time I tried collecting from there. But I still think that if the oil is dry, that the amount of cleaner in it would not do damage to injectors, unless you aren't purging at all, and letting the oil set in the injectors for extended periods of time.

I dumpster dive exclusively and haven't had any problems yet...

is what you are calling dumpster diving using "used oil" or is it using used oil without processing it?

I use used oil, but I get it in the jugs it came in - I persuade the restaurant to do this by giving them the funnel and stand we sell on the 'site.

Craig