Ed, thanks for your valuable input to this discussion. PlantDrive's well documented success with VO conversion systems speaks volumes and gives your contribution strong credibility. Your customer service is also top-notch; head and shoulders above the nearest competition. Keep up the good work, it's appreciated.

quote:

I think I have wasted enough time on this one, folks.

AS you have said several times in this discussion already.
Each time in response to a request that you provide something to back up what you have claimed here rather than simply claiming the Acrevo study is contradicted by some other study....which you then fail to provide even a link to.

quote:

Forums are a way to kill time in the winter

I am sorry you feel that is how they should be used Ed.
I take them a bit more seriously than that.

I have better ways to "kill time".

I have updated the first post in this discussion to include links to more information which supports the concept that VO must be heated to 230-250F for it to properly combust in an engine with injector sdesigned for petrodiesel.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott,

Dana,

Your first paragraph would have been sufficient to extoll your points on the subject in this thread. Why continue to bait people into arguments. A simple, "here is the research that seems to validate my argument" is perfectly acceptable. Why the rest of the post? Just seems childish.

quote:

Originally posted by greasinhappy:
Why continue to bait people into arguments.

1. To vent the need for attention and recognition that would not be forthcoming otherwise in whatever way one can get it?

2. For the opportunity to massage one's own ego? ( I have never seen less modesty and more gloating in any other persons posts before)

3. To talk about their hereto totally unsubstantiated conversion business?

4. to champions ones latest pet cause ( following compression testing, coking, drying oil and other rants that have had their turn of being rammed down peoples throats incessantly) ?

5. To fill one's spare time which is obviously available in great Qty.

6. To try to win peer respect and appreciation that is clearly lacking in one's everyday life?

There are no doubt other reasons that I cannot identify not being trained in the field of Psychology but clearly a balanced person would not intentionally make themselves a subject of such repeated ridicule and ultimately, Pitty.

The repeated pattern of the way discussions develop into a waste of everyone's time with those whom are single minded in pushing their own agenda's rather than trying to learn or find the truth and facts in a topic have demonstrated that embarking in any sort of discussion with certain these people is a complete and utter waste of time although containing an amount of hard earned ironic humor at these people's expense.

quote:

A simple, "here is the research that seems to validate my argument" is perfectly acceptable. Why the rest of the post? Just seems childish.

Greasinhappy,
You are absolutey correct.

I have edited the post in question.

quote:

The repeated pattern of the way discussions develop into a waste of everyone's time with those whom are single minded in pushing their own agenda's rather than trying to learn or find the truth and facts in a topic have demonstrated that embarking in any sort of discussion with certain these people is a complete and utter waste of time

Thank you...
That was EXACTLY my point.
And I guess it just ticks me off when those individuals with personal agendas repeatedly derail what would otherwise be productive discussions which hold potential to increase the public knowledge base of VO conversion.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

Thank you...
That was EXACTLY my point.
And I guess it just ticks me off when those individuals with personal agendas repeatedly derail what would otherwise be productive discussions which hold potential to increase the public knowledge base of VO conversion.

Then if you realise the problem, why do you continually and persistently make yourself the cause of it then pretend it's everyone else's fault and your the poor hard done by one?

quote:

Then if you realise the problem,

Even though you don't realize it you were describing how individuals with an agenda which does not include advancing the public VO conversion knowledgebase tend to try to derail any discussion which does that.

I am not a victim in that situation.
The VO conversion community is.

And putting considerable effort into providing accurate and verifiable information that expands the public knowledgebase only to have individuals with an old "ax to grind" or vendors whose products might become considered outdated attempt to derail the discussion that might expand the knowledgebase even more is frustrating. In fact it pisses me off that EVERY time I provide such information in this forum in an effort to stimulate that type of a discussion the SAME individuals show up and attempt to derail it.


You even named a few of the topics in which you have personally participated in such derailings.

I understand why kit vendors do not want the public knoledge base to grow.
But I don't undestand why that would be part of YOUR agenda.

As far as making myself

quote:

a subject of such repeated ridicule

The ridicule is pretty easy to take.
Words only sting for a little while and not much at all when the source appear capable of little else.

I understand the ridicule is designed to shut me up and discourage me (and anyone else) from posting information of the type the OP focused on. Most people do not support of that type of attempts at infrmation suppression. And as I have said before..due to the thick hide I have grown over the past few years as a result of such information suppression efforts that is never going to be much of a success. It may force me to plug along when trying to presenting a "new" concept or information. It may even occasionally piss me off.

But it isn't going to stop the sharing of new ideas or information.

That may be a "problem" for you..and a handful of others.
But thats entirely your choice.

The rest of the VO community benfits from the discussons that result.
Unless of course that handful manages to derail the discussion.

I which case I just have to start over again.

quote:

Here is the best scientific study I have seen that compared D2 and VO at temps of 30C (86F), 75C (167F), and 135C (275F), see post#3:
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3596

The results show very tiny (<2%) improvements in Fuel consumption, thermal efficiency, and smoke opacity when going from 167F to 275F. EGT and NOX emissions were worse at the higher temp.

The reason these charts are good is they are actually measuring engine performance parameters under the varying conditions.

And the reason these charts are not so good is that the "diesel fuel" being used to compare power output to is nowhere near ASTM quality #1 or #2 diesel fuel. But you wouldn't know that unless you had access to the actual text of the study which for some reason Frybrid has failed to provide.

All "diesel fuel" is not equal and it is not unusual in less developed parts of the world to have diesel fuel that is several times more viscous than the maximum allowed in Europe or NA.

Comparing abnormally high viscosity "diesel fuel" to VO does not provide useful info for those who have access to higher quality fuel. It is equivalent to comparing power output of an engine running light bunker fuel to VO fuel. The power is so negatively impacted by the poor quality "diesel fuel" that the "difference" is artificially minimized.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott,

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

quote:

Here is the best scientific study I have seen that compared D2 and VO at temps of 30C (86F), 75C (167F), and 135C (275F), see post#3:
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3596

The results show very tiny (<2%) improvements in Fuel consumption, thermal efficiency, and smoke opacity when going from 167F to 275F. EGT and NOX emissions were worse at the higher temp.

The reason these charts are good is they are actually measuring engine performance parameters under the varying conditions.

And the reason these charts are not so good is that the "diesel fuel" being used to compare power output to is nowhere near ASTM quality #1 or #2 diesel fuel.

Comparing abnormally high viscosity "diesel fuel" to VO does not provide useful info for those who have access to higher quality fuel.

The numbers I was comparing was VO at 167F and the same VO at 275F for the 2% improvements. The quality of D2 has no effect on those numbers.

These are the same type of data I have asked you to provide from the ACREVO study, but apparently you don't have access to anything but the summary, or the study doesn't contain those actual measurements that would show the amount of improvement in power or mileage when going from 160-230+?
Thats the data that matters much more than a viscosity chart.

You haven't answered most of the questions I have posted in this thread. Quoting Dana:
"I also notice that you don't appear able to answer the simple questions I have put to you.
Calling your bluff..so to speak."

quote:

The numbers I was comparing was VO at 167F and the same VO at 275F for the 2% improvements.

Could you please check your source and copy exactly what you are referring to to this discussion.

I simply do not see any such numbers at the link you provided.

quote:

see post#3:
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3596

Nor do I see any refferrence to D2.
The quality of the refferrence fuel certainly has something to do with determining the validity of the study.

Are you aware of any other study where VO produced lower NOX emissions than the diesel fuel used as a comparative fuel? Doesn' this indicate that the majority of the fuel is not combusting at all. It also seems very odd that CO an smoke density is higher for ALL the vo at every temp than for the "diesel fuel".

Have you ever seen a VO/diesel fuel comparative study where it was not the reverse?
Is your access to such studies limited to that on theFrybrid forum?

quote:

You haven't answered most of the questions I have posted in this thread.

In fact I believe I have.
I just checked to make certain.

If you feel that I have not..please check to make certain yourself and if you cannot find the answer repost your question. If I can answer it I will be happy to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

quote:

Then if you realise the problem,

Even though you don't realize it you were describing how individuals with an agenda which does not include advancing the public VO conversion knowledgebase tend to try to derail any discussion which does that.

I am not a victim in that situation.
The VO conversion community is.

And putting considerable effort into providing accurate and verifiable information that expands the public knowledgebase only to have individuals with an old "ax to grind" or vendors whose products might become considered outdated attempt to derail the discussion that might expand the knowledgebase even more is frustrating. In fact it pisses me off that EVERY time I provide such information in this forum in an effort to stimulate that type of a discussion the SAME individuals show up and attempt to derail it.


You even named a few of the topics in which you have personally participated in such derailings.

I understand why kit vendors do not want the public knoledge base to grow.
But I don't undestand why that would be part of YOUR agenda.

As far as making myself

quote:

a subject of such repeated ridicule

The ridicule is pretty easy to take.
Words only sting for a little while and not much at all when the source appear capable of little else.

I understand the ridicule is designed to shut me up and discourage me (and anyone else) from posting information of the type the OP focused on. Most people do not support of that type of attempts at infrmation suppression. And as I have said before..due to the thick hide I have grown over the past few years as a result of such information suppression efforts that is never going to be much of a success. It may force me to plug along when trying to presenting a "new" concept or information. It may even occasionally piss me off.

But it isn't going to stop the sharing of new ideas or information.

That may be a "problem" for you..and a handful of others.
But thats entirely your choice.

The rest of the VO community benfits from the discussons that result.
Unless of course that handful manages to derail the discussion.

I which case I just have to start over again.

Good Grief!!!!
You really have convinced yourself that everything you say is unfailingly correct and everyone else is wrong and has some sort of agenda to stifle the truth.

I see you have created a new Complaint to try to undermine those that don't swallow your words without question and fall on bended knee in praise of your all encompassing wisdom....

quote:

"I understand the ridicule is designed to shut me up and discourage me (and anyone else) from posting information of the type the OP focused on. Most people do not support of that type of attempts at infrmation suppression."

So now the " Uncivil" and " voiding the terms of service" subterfuges have run their course, your going to try to convince yourself that people have an agenda to stifle the advancement of veg use.
If you could take a step back and see how saying things like this makes you look to others, having a shred of reality you would stop undermining any credibility you have left.

quote:

In fact it pisses me off that EVERY time I provide such information in this forum in an effort to stimulate that type of a discussion the SAME individuals show up and attempt to derail it.

While some including myself regularly take exception to your personal agenda of status elevation with questionable theories and " Information" the truth is that every time you go on one of your rants there is always a number of different people that disagree and you normally end up going down the same path with which leads to the now very predictable path any thread you start will follow.
You need to come to grips with the fact Dana that you are the single common thread in this and the one person causing it with your unfailing " What I have said is absoloutley right and anyone that questions it is wrong and is just trying to have a go at me personally".

The ONLY information you are interested in presenting is the "Gospel of Veg according to Dana" and anyone that enters into those discussions with a differing viewpoint receive's your scorn and ridicule along with a bunch of your laughable attempts at undermining the valid points they make that conflict with your version of reality.
YOUR agenda is not to advance the development of Veg or help the community at all. It is merely to stroke your own massive and immodest ego and paint yourself as the Veg God in order to win respect and admiration to fill a gaping void that exists in your real, every day life.
That truth is obvious to everyone else by your own behavior over many years back to your positively Debunked 20 years experience claims and beyond.
It's time for you to see for yourself what most others realized years ago.

quote:

And as I have said before..due to the thick hide I have grown over the past few years as a result of such information suppression efforts that is never going to be much of a success.

Your idea of a thick skin and "years" clearly is different to mine.
Claiming people are being " uncivil", Making " personal attacks" and trying to hide behind " the terms of service" are not what I would describe as having a thick skin Nor is running to a moderator or trying to intimidate people by saying they are watching. All this has all happened in the last few months as I understand a month to be. I would very much welcome you growing a think skin as well as growing up and gaining a grip on reality but I fear as a person in their 40's, I don't have enough years left in me to see that happen. My children probably don't either come to think of it.

I fully realise you will quote and spin doctor what I have said here ignoring the facts you don't want to admit and again trying to make yourself a mata, but just for a moment, put your pride aside and ask yourself honestly and impartially if there is any truth in what has been said here and on other discussions and ask yourself if that is really how you want yourself to be seen and thought of?

If your motivations really are to further the course of Veg, You have to come to terms with the fact you are going about it the completely wrong way and unless you realise that and adopt a different approach, the only thing you are going to advance is the Pitty people feel for you right before they read your rantings and dismiss them without giving them a seconds consideration.

That isn't going to help you nor anyone else and the only person that can change that is you.

quote:

If your motivations really are to further the course of Veg, You have to come to terms with the fact you are going about it the completely wrong way and unless you realise that and adopt a different approach,

And your suggestion for the "right approach" to trying to have technical discussions is?

quote:

You really have convinced yourself that everything you say is unfailingly correct and everyone else is wrong and has some sort of agenda to stifle the truth.

No..just those who never actually engage in technical discussion but post long off topic posts in them in an effort to derail the technical parts.

No one has a longer history of doing that then you.

You already listed some of the technical discussions you did exactly THAT in.

What IS your agenda if it is not that?

Dana, you have gathered and correlated information from many sources and with that information you MAY have shown that VO is the same viscosity as diesel at a certain temperature. You then came to the conclusion (supposition in reality) that that temperature is the optimum pre injector temperature. No hands on studies or testing of your own that anyone here has seen. No information whatsoever about what happens to VO temperatures in the injectors. As Ed has stated, the burden of proof is in your hands. Also, your supposition contradicts the beliefs of the vast majority of those in the VO community.

I cannot take credit for the following but it sure does apply here.

"Repeat after me, as many times as required, while slapping yourself in the face to help the lesson sink home.

CORRELATION IS NOT PROOF

You cannot build a logical argument upon a basis of correlation with a structure of supposition, that's called BS.

Start slapping yourself in the face again, and repeat the following.

CORRELATION IS NOT PROOF"


One more thing, the flash point of gasoline is –45°F. It’s 70°F outside my house right now. Why is my gasoline powered van not on fire? It’s because the AIT of gasoline is 536°F

Thanks, Geno

quote:

your supposition contradicts the beliefs of the vast majority of those in the VO community.

And THAT is the real problem I think.
New information that contradicts ANYONES currently held beliefs is always hard to accept.

But I don't know how you can make a statement like the above without a huge amount of undocumented supposition.

quote:

No information whatsoever about what happens to VO temperatures in the injectors.

Actually there is...but you have not read the info linked to in the OP.

DCS, right you are again. I wonder why the individual who complains so much about how poorly moderated and organized this forum is, doesn't just take these self serving discussions to THIS FORUM where they could have complete control over what gets posted?

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
DCS, right you are again. I wonder why the individual who complains so much about how poorly moderated and organized this forum is, doesn't just take these self serving discussions to THIS FORUM where they could have complete control over what gets posted?

I can only speculate John that having complete control over what was posted didn't give said individual the satisfaction they are craving. It seems to me that the real desire they harbor is a need to incite argument not discussion as there is evidence they have tried playing Forum God and that didn't satisfy their irrational cravings.


Examination of the site you linked to shows that in over 3 years, the forum has only attracted a total of 369 members at time of writing this post.
Given the popularity of Veg oil topic, the media attention it has received and the size of other forums on this subject, I would have to call this forum a rather dismal failure.

If one looks a little deeper at the site statistics,( Plantoil/diesel conversion basics Statistics
Threads: 314, Posts: 1,221, Members: 369 -) one can see that out of the total 1221 posts made, 680 of them are by one single person. No prizes for guessing it's the moderator. Roll Eyes
Further rendering this forum more of a Soap Box than a place of discussion, is the fact that a search of the members list reveals many of the members have never posted at all, about 95% have never posted more than 5 times and I could only find one member in a cursory scan that had reached a post tally of 20 contributions. Obviously people signing up to that forum don't last long or there are only a few people who will agree with everything the moderator of the site puts forward Which could possibly be an unwritten requirement of participation or ones comments actually making an appearance on the site at all.

The link to the numbers Data for those that believe nothing without one, is here: http://voconversionbasics.webs...com/register/members

Clearly the stats of this site show that to this individual, control isn't enough. They also have a craving for an audience to argue with and force their inflexible fabrications of the truth and reality down as many peoples throats as possible. Perhaps it was that very behavior that has made their own forum the waste of server space it clearly is?

It would further the cause of veg fuels and this particular forum no end if this person could contain themselves to their own desolate backwood corner of Cyberspace which they no doubt set up with hereto unrealized disillusions of greatness and worship from the great unwashed ( and dried) but clearly they have got tired of preaching to themselves there and have ventured further afield in order to maximize the amount of people they can annoy, argue with and make themselves look foolish in front of.


****

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:


New information that contradicts ANYONES currently held beliefs is always hard to accept.

Close, but not quite.
As has been clearly and repeatedly demonstrated, information that contradicts YOUR beliefs is Never accepted but rather ridiculed and challenged with all sorts of impractical requests of proof with the full knowledge these demands would be impossible to satisfy.

quote:

But I don't know how you can make a statement like the above without a huge amount of undocumented supposition.

Well that is exactly what has been provided!
Not everything is documented or has a link to a web page but it's good to see that finally you have asked for something that is practical and achievable. Having in fact provided the required Huge amount of UNdocumented supposition, you finally have to accept someone Else's ideas!

Why do I get the feeling there will be some far fetched, transparent excuse put forward so you don't have to do what you require of all others??

quote:

challenged with all sorts of impractical requests of proof with the full knowledge these demands would be impossible to satisfy.

My demands for proof from Ed Beggs were only that he provide the documentation which HE said he had.
THAT's not an impractical request at all.

The fact is I have presented a fairly long list of supposting documentation.
But apparrently those of you who prefer to post trollish off topic posts rather engage in dialoge canot be bothered to read them.

I don't see how you can expect anyone to take you seriously when ALL you do in technical discusssions is attmpt to derail them.

If you wish to be taken at all seriously you will need to engage in discussion on the topic and provide some supporting documentation.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:

quote:

The numbers I was comparing was VO at 167F and the same VO at 275F for the 2% improvements.

Could you please check your source and copy exactly what you are referring to to this discussion.
I simply do not see any such numbers at the link you provided. see post#3:
http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3596

See the chart of brake specific energy consumption on the page I linked:
http://www.frybrid.com/images/Image3.jpg
Then measure the difference between the figures for VO at 75C and 135C (Its zero difference at most points on the graph.) Then take that difference and project it to the scale on the left side. This is the same way you read any graph to read amounts from it.

quote:

Are you aware of any other study where VO produced lower NOX emissions than the diesel fuel used as a comparative fuel?

Yes NOX varies greatly depending on how the timing is set, and several other factors.

quote:

Doesn' this indicate that the majority of the fuel is not combusting at all.

No you can't draw that conclusion, there would be far more smoke if that were the case.
It appears you can read the graphs, so read the graphs of brake specific energy consumption and thermal efficiency.

quote:

Is your access to such studies limited to that on theFrybrid forum?

No I have access to a large variety of studies.

quote:

quote:

You haven't answered most of the questions I have posted in this thread.

In fact I believe I have.
I just checked to make certain.

If you feel that I have not..please check to make certain yourself and if you cannot find the answer repost your question. If I can answer it I will be happy to do so.

OK here this question is for the 3rd time:
What is the amount of improvement shown in ACREVO (or any other study) in power or mileage when going from 160-230F+ VO temp?