Hello all,
I, like many of you are concerned w micro droplets in my wvo. I have a very good source of wvo and my car loves it. The only problem that useing comon conventional methods of dewatering cant seem to get hose micro droplets out well enough to satisfy me. My usual ruteen is this 1 filter wvo down to 10 microns in a steel drum. 2 mix in about 6 lbs of baking soda (my personal preferance since I runa single tank) 3 heat oil to 120 F and cut off heat letting it sit in insulater drum until cool.
This is what many people do and after that the oil is usualy filtered down to 5 mic or so into the final drum or into the 2nd out of 3 drums. My oil usually stays at or above 90 degrees for allmost 48 hrs, the free water is gone but it hasnt been enough time or enough constant heat to get the micro drops out.
This is what I did. On my 2nd tank I filtered my clean wvo down to 5 microns sending it through a spin on water block filter and then to a home made pressureized 32 in gravity type filter. Near the bottom of that drum I installed on the outside of the drum a 30 Ft., 60 watt pipe heating cable. The cable never gets hotter than about 96-98 degrees and heats up very slowly and my drum (like the 1 st one is well insulated. When I did this I wasnt sure what the results would be or if that would be enough heat to do anything. I checked the oil temps about 3 times a day and especially during the night when it was at it coolest, the oil allways stayed between about 88-93 degrees f and after 2 and a half days I checked for micro droplest useing a hot pan and found nothing, zero, zilch. I tested at the top, middle, 6 inches from the bottom where my valve is and have found nothing. My conclusion so far is that the micro droplets are sitting at the bottom of the drum. I feel like this is a great find for several reasons, being that this heater cable is only 27 dollars 2 60 watts is the same as powering a weak light bulb and 3 I finially have completely water free oil. There are several caviats to this experiment that I think are very important to getting optimum results which I would be happy to discuss if you all are interested, such as runing the wvo through a heater unit when going from frum # 1 to drum # 2 and a few others. This is stillan experiment in progress and I would love your input. One thing to know that is very important is that you CANT cross the lines on the heater cables, doing this will cause hot spots which may cause convection but I think the bigest danger is wire melting and fire. I believe that this low and slow heat causes such minor convection that the water is allowed to drop out completely. Also I left the cables pluged in for about a week to see if the heat would eventually stir bak in the water and it didnt seem to.
I am thinking of adding a few gallons of water to the bottom og drum # 2 for the micro dops to attach to. Since drum #2 for me is also my filling drum and I fill from the bottom of the drom I dont want to accidentially suck in the micro droplest, I think that by adding water to the bottom willchange the micro drops to free water which will be caught by my final water block filter that I have installed on my filler tube. Again please let me know what you all think. I hope the pics help (assuming I can p[ost them)
Erik

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/eriks_address/cars002.jpg" border="0" alt="Image hosting by Photobucket"></a>

trying to post pics

eriks_address[1].jpg (18 KB, 519 downloads)

here is an outside view of my filter seup. I pump all my oil through a home made heater unit that you can see above the drums in the middle, it is a simple water heater element with oversized pipeing so the oil stirs around in there. If done right it can heat about 4 gallons a min. With this new set up I have been tweaking w it a bit to get the desired temp since it now has more pipe to go through that is acting as a heat sink.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/eriks_address/cars002.jpg



Here is my 2nd drum w a hole cut in the lid for a 32 inch 10 to 5 micron gracity bag, I put a rubber seal betwene the plywood and bag and torqued it down w wing nuts, this allows the oil to be filtered extremely fast and does not allow any outside contaminants or moisture in. My last batch of oil I filtered about 45 of warm oil in about 10min

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/eriks_address/cars008.jpg




Next you can see where my filler tube is installed, I know it is considereed a no no to fill from the bottoe but I go to extreem measures to make sure my oil is clean and I also run it through another 5 micron water catching spin on filter that is about 1 ft to the left of the pic. There is a shut off valve here in the pic as well as one at the end of the nozel to ensure that my tube will allways stay filled w oil and not be allowed to gather condensation. Also you can see the grey cord where I plug in the heater.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/eriks_address/cars005.jpg

Here is the brand of heater cable I used, I found it at Orchard Supply hardware, but I think they can be purchased pretty much anywhere. I think the key was getting one this long and the very low heat it puts out.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/eriks_address/IMG_1274.jpg

Here is my car filling up. My unit is only about 6 ft from my car on the other side of the fence and about 4 ft above it si I can fill up w out useing a pump.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e32/eriks_address/cars001.jpg

Sorry about being so long winded but I am very excited about this. I would like to state that all y findings and theory or open for discussion, any misrepresentation I may have made in my theories I would love to hear about but i cant stand people who come to these rooms strictly to nay say and knock others down so please keep it in the spirit of improvment and progress. Hope this helps a bit
Erik

Do you heat your barrel with the LID ON? I have found if I leave the lid on, I get a TON of condensation on the underside of the lid, and that just runs down the sides into the WVO again. If you leave the lid off, the water will leave the WVO thru evaporation and you won't have to deal with water on the bottom. If you don't see the water on the bottom of the barrel or bucket, then that's probably what's happening. Sounds like you have a great setup!

Hey B.K. and Fattywaggonman

I get zero condensation under the lid. I think the reason is because I have allready dewatered my wvo in the 1 drum getting rid of most of the water except for the micro droplets. I then run it hot through a spin on dewatering filter and then down to 5 microns and an air tight drum. I dont think that there is enough water in the wvo at this poing to want to steam up, nor enough heat to stir it up enough. Either that or the condensation temp for drawing water out of the oil into the air is not reached. As far as natural condensation from the atmosphere, I guess it does not cause as much moisture as I thought.
On my 1st drum there is allways tons of condensation on the lid, but that oil is untreated and reaches about 120 which is more than enough to make it steam up. I have done over 50 tests on the oil now and have gotten a total of 2 pops. What do you guys think of adding a small purge valve, maybe 1/2 or so as to not create any current, place it at the very very bottom of the drum, maybe even on the belly along with a few gallong of water for the micro droplets to stick to, that way when I am done I can drain out the bottom to ensure that my oil is water free. I am not a scientist and these are my best guesses but I hope they help.
Erik

B.K.
sorry I forgot to answer your question. I heat the oil w the lid on and tightened down. But also my oilis allready warm when it hits my final drum. Not a drop on condensation.
Erik

That sounds pretty cool. Do you intend to not have to filter at all before it goes into the tank or to greatly minimize the need t filter from 600 to 400 to 200 to 100 nicrons and so on. I am courious to see how this works once you get it running. My thought is is that (if you are planning to eliminate filtering alltogethor) do debri in the oil that is smaller than 50 micron or so have enough mass or weight to sink to the bottom? Sounds like a great plan and keep me posted. Also what do you think of my idea to add water to the bottom for the micro droplets to cling to along w a purge valve to get that water out. Do you know if micro droplets cling to water or are they to small?
Best of luck
Erik

Erikk,

Where do you live? and sorry if you mentioned this in your text.

If I had my filter setup outside like that I'd spend most of the winter chipping ice and snow off, and the rest of the time fighting off the hoards of animals trying to get at the oil. Good on you if you can get away with it.

Hi Erik,

Thanks for taking the time and posting your new dewatering system! Great info

Thanks Matt

If anyone tries the same method I am useing (30 Ft. 60 watt pipe heating cable) can you let me know your findings. I am courious as to what happens in other climats or w slight changes.
Also I was asked as to the climate I live in. I live in Santa Cruz Ca and the weather here is fair. I drops below freezing at night but not every night and the days are betwene the mid 50s to the 70s lately. I am courious to see if this would work in colder climates where the drum is well insulated, maybe you would have to go to a hotterr cable but I am afraid that it may create a convection current.
Erik

Has anyone else used this method
Sorry but I am not ready for this thread to die. Anyone??
Erik

quote:

Originally posted by erikk:
Has anyone else used this method
Sorry but I am not ready for this thread to die. Anyone??
Erik

I have not tried it yet. But I am going to try it!

Erikk

This is really interesting, I live in the UK and have been trying to source something similar here, but cant.
I have tried the Orchard Supply Hardware website, but they don’t have an on line catalogue. Can anyone suggest a supplier on line in the USA?
I also have a couple of questions.
The product is designed to be installed along the length of a pipe. Do you think wrapping it around a barrel, forming a sort of a coil would make it overheat, and fail over time?
I can find Electric Heating Tapes
http://www.resistance-technology.co.uk/prodf.htm
They all specify watts per meter, does the pipe heater you used mention this?

Good luck

erikk
when you say "installed" the 30' heat cable on the outside of your tank, do you mean you wrapped the cable around the outside of your tank? how big is the tank and how many wraps around do you get?
this is similar to my winter setup, except my tank is wrapped with tubing that has warm water running through it, not heat tape
the tank and tubing are wrapped in insulation (foil-faced bubble wrap & more scrap bubble-wrap secured w/ that industrial 'saran-wrap' package wrapping)

I think the reason this is so effective is:

- the bottom is not heated (but it is insulated); this allows microdroplets to settle and glom together at the bottom of the tank without getting stirred up into the mix again

- heat is uniform, i.e. wrapped around the entire tank, no point-source, as w/ a hot water heating element
this minimizes convection currents, which will again stir up microdroplets into the mix

- heat is low; I have domestic hot running through my tubing at @ 120°, which is higher than your heat tape, but no where near the cherry-red heat of a hot-water heater; (my tank is also @ 150 gal, which requires substantially more heat than 30 gals)
the relatively low heat, again, keeps things gentle and slow, with very little convection

- time - my tank sits one of two weeks at a time between refueling, at constant temps
this, above all, seems to be the most critical element in settling dewatering


also, erikk:
when you say you got 2 "pops", do you mean audible spatters, i.e. drop of water actually boiling and jumping out of the pan?
if so, this indicates WAY too much water in the pan
ANY audible popping or bubbling in a hot pan test is a real danger sign
if you meant, however, that you only saw two tiny bubbles form in the oil, and otherwise it was entirely clear and smooth, then you are indeed getting very dry oil with your test

I shoot for ZERO bubbles of any size; only the normal 'cratering' of the surface as the oil heats, whcih is similar to what you will see heating store-bought just-opened virgin oil

Hello Fred

On the 55 gallon drum I do not wrap the heating cable apon its self. It lays side by side w the heating elements never touching, as a amatter of fact I warned against crossing the cables at all since I did in a test and they got way to hot for my comfort level. As far asa where to get them I couldnt tell you. I am sure if you call around at hardware stores you can find them. It doesnt have to be this brand, I am sure just about any would work, I think this watts and heat may be key since it is so mild and non consuming. I wish you luck finding them and would love to hear how it goes.
Erik

Hey
Yes I wraped it on the outside of my final 55 Gallon drum, neat the bottom. It is your standard size drum. Your winter set up seems pretty cool. Dont get this heat cable confused w heat tape, I believe the 2 are very different. On the winter set up you have does the water circulate w a pumpthrough your hot water heater?
anyways. I am pretty famaliar of the sound tyhat alot of water makes in oil and this is very much the oposite (please excuse my spelling) I cant remember if I made it clear but I got 2 tiny pops Total, after over 50 pan tests of oil through out the drum (not including the very bottom) I agree thatbthe key is uniform heat w very little convection but the problem seems to be, how to do that and how to do it cost efectivly. I look fwd to more insight from you and others
Erik

quote:

Originally posted by EuDeMan:
erikk
when you say "installed" the 30' heat cable on the outside of your tank, do you mean you wrapped the cable around the outside of your tank? how big is the tank and how many wraps around do you get?
this is similar to my winter setup, except my tank is wrapped with tubing that has warm water running through it, not heat tape
the tank and tubing are wrapped in insulation (foil-faced bubble wrap & more scrap bubble-wrap secured w/ that industrial 'saran-wrap' package wrapping)

I think the reason this is so effective is:

- the bottom is not heated (but it is insulated); this allows microdroplets to settle and glom together at the bottom of the tank without getting stirred up into the mix again

- heat is uniform, i.e. wrapped around the entire tank, no point-source, as w/ a hot water heating element
this minimizes convection currents, which will again stir up microdroplets into the mix

- heat is low; I have domestic hot running through my tubing at @ 120°, which is higher than your heat tape, but no where near the cherry-red heat of a hot-water heater; (my tank is also @ 150 gal, which requires substantially more heat than 30 gals)
the relatively low heat, again, keeps things gentle and slow, with very little convection

- time - my tank sits one of two weeks at a time between refueling, at constant temps
this, above all, seems to be the most critical element in settling dewatering


also, erikk:
when you say you got 2 "pops", do you mean audible spatters, i.e. drop of water actually boiling and jumping out of the pan?
if so, this indicates WAY too much water in the pan
ANY audible popping or bubbling in a hot pan test is a real danger sign
if you meant, however, that you only saw two tiny bubbles form in the oil, and otherwise it was entirely clear and smooth, then you are indeed getting very dry oil with your test

I shoot for ZERO bubbles of any size; only the normal 'cratering' of the surface as the oil heats, whcih is similar to what you will see heating store-bought just-opened virgin oil

Dana
if your out there. I was wondering if you had any input as to wheather or not microdroplets indeed tend to bond to free water. a few posts up I was playing w the idea of putting a few gallons or so of water at in the drum to give the micro droplets somthing to cling to, there for changing them from a micro droplet form to free water that can be recognized and removed. My problem is though, is that I do not know if they easily bond w free water when they come incontact w it under heated conditions w out any real convection to speak of. Your thoughts and experiance would be greatly appreciated
Erik

erikk
my experience is that microdroplets like other microdroplets to hang out with best
over time, my tank develops a layer of 'sludge' at the bottom which is wet (no free water, but much micro) and fatty WVO
in my experience, this is the 'magic ingredient' in a settling-dewatering tank
this stuff is the 'microdroplet magnet'
usually it takes months to build up a good foundation, but this winter I 'primed' a new tank with a few gallons of it and have seen much faster transition to effective dewatering

Erikk

When you say you wrap it round the bottom of the tank.
How far off the bottom does the beginning of the cable start?
What is the spacing between each coil.
How long does it take to heat the entire drum?
What is the outside temperature?

I was thinking of doing something similar, only with a drum inside a drum, plastic 50gal, with a 12gal inside. The space between would be about 4inch all round. The top and bottom would be at least 6 inches. This space would then be filled with Expanding Polyurethane Foam. This super insulated drum would then be heated, with one of your pipe heaters.


For anyone interested you can get Erikk's item here
http://www.usahardware.com/inet/shop/item/30690/icn/20-...14/wrap_on/31030.htm


Thank you for your time