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I thought fats referred to the fat from deep fried meat, very different than hydrogenated oil, and has an even higher melting point.
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That's the distinction I have always made: fats = animal based = high melt point. oils = plant based = low melt point. Its not perfect, somewhere in the middle is a fair bit of overlap, but still... |
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...because fat is solid, and oil is fluid at room temperature. A blob of lard in a cup of oil sitting on a counter says something about how well that will likely all flow down a tube, or hose.
A tube is a rigid hollow cylinder made of metal of some fixed length. Some tubes can be deformed into various positions while retaining it's basically hollow characteristic. Whereas a hose is a flexible conduit usually made of rubber or synthetics or plastics and is typically produced as a continuous process yielding unlimited lengths. Some hoses when cooled sufficiently become rigid and exhibit tube-like qualities. You see, temperature matters. I don't often see HHO but I have seen HOH sometimes written as H20, all of which are dihydrous oxide, a potentially lethal (toxic) solvent... better known as water. Dude - get outside more! Regards, Scott 1987 Mercedes 300D - 2 tank VO |
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That's the distinction most experienced VO users make. One will find many discussions referring to 'fats and PHO' suspended in VO. Hydrogenation was developed to make a vegetable oil product with the high melt temperature of animal fats like butter and lard. PHO is an acronym for Partially Hydrogenated Oil. Some use HHO as an acronym for Home Heating Oil. It's similar to D2 but can contain significantly more sulfur. Don't confuse it with the hydrogen and 'water fuel' scams. --.- ..- . ... - .. --- -. / .- ..- - .... --- .-. .. - -.-- '89 Toyota 3.4L TDI + FPHE BD+ULSD+VO+JetB blends |
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A signature I used to use was " For Veg use, the only difference between fats and oils is temperature."
To me, if something is solid or very thick and can be separated from a thinner liquid at the same temp, it's a fat. I don't care if it's animal fat or hydrogenated oil, the implications are the same for either so I go with one of the many widely accepted and understood definitions amongst the many other terms used in the veg game that are not entirely accurate either.  **** * 1978 Merc 300D. Running Blend and 2 tank system with Home Made HE and water injection. |
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Hi Scott.
Coconut & palm oils are solid @ room temp, so I don't think classification is as simple as determining the source. I think there is some subtle chemical difference, although I'm not aware ofwhat the true differences are. Maybe RickDaTech or GM might know. |
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Hi John.
Actually, hydrogenation was done to extend shelf life, not to creat a solid triglyceride from a liquid one. |
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Hi DCS.
Since your definition explains that terminology may vary from one specialty of knowledge to another, it is probably the best overall definition for biofuel application. |
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from a A BRIEF HISTORY OF HYDROGENATION --.- ..- . ... - .. --- -. / .- ..- - .... --- .-. .. - -.-- '89 Toyota 3.4L TDI + FPHE BD+ULSD+VO+JetB blends |
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Fat and oil are common terms, not scientific language. The problem with using this type of terminology is that there are regional and other different uses for the same word. It is kind of like calling a fish a red snapper. That means something different depending on where you are. Besides, where do you draw the line? Gels at what temp.? |
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If your in a fish shop or discussing cooking, the meaning is universally understood. If your are discussing fats or oil on a veg forum, those common terms are easily understood as well. While they may mean different things in other fields and interest groups, their meaning is understood when discussing them as fuels. It would seem much easier to educate the minority of people who are confused about these things that he huge majority that clearly understand these terms.
I agree, How specific do you want to get? While oils or fats may have reference gel temps, as the majority of people are using WVO, the gel temps are likely to vary widely even for the same oil type depending on what was cooked in it, how long it was used, the temp it was used at and other things. Even 10oC can make a big difference between liquid fuel a car will run on and a solid lump that will block everything. I have seen such a variation not only with the same type of oil, but with the same brand of oil sourced from different suppliers. I think by getting too specific you are going to create more confusion than what you solve. At the end of the day, the language is already well established and understood and is not likely to change so probably little point in worrying about it. **** * 1978 Merc 300D. Running Blend and 2 tank system with Home Made HE and water injection. |
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This is my point. In the term you are using, whether something is an "oil" or a "fat" will be a matter of the local conditions and might very depending on individual point of view. If we go by what happens on the BD side, I'd have to disagree. Example: People often say what # they use as a base. In order to make this precise enough to tell what is going on, they need to state whether they are adjusting for the purity of the catalyst, or at least what the purity is. |
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The terms fat and oil (as related to wvo fuel use) were coined during the early days of this forum. They remain in common use here (and on other forums) because they allow those new to wvo to easily understand the concepts of oils which remain relativly fluid at 50F and higher and animal fats which tend not to. In some cases hydrogenated VO is lumped in with fats by some posters...but most often they are not. The fact is that in technical discussions more specificity is used. But very few technical discussions take place on open forums since they are so easily "derailed" due to low key moderation levels on general forums such as this one. For a technical forum your point is very valid..but for general forums I think that insisting on more technical terms just seems to frustrate many individuals.
There is nothing tha prevents you or me from using more technical language if we wish. But any attempt to impose that on others just isn't productive. This message has been edited. Last edited by: danalinscott, Dana दान danalinscott@yahoo.com http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/ VegOil Conversions by Dana Linscott- VO Conversion Consultation for large and small trucks, VO fuel related businesses, and co-generation(power/heat)projects, |
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I don't suggest imposing anything on anyone. However, when someone suggests that being accurate is confusing, and using not precise terms is clear, I beg to differ.
Sure, in some cases it takes more time to be accurate and complete. But in the end, it is worth it. In some cases, the same type of sloppy language leads to faulty conclusions about what the cause of something which is observed. My 2 cent. |
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we meaning dANA who is quoting himself for some reason???
anyways... set up a seperate site for more in depth discussions and terms... few showed... few more argued... lol I think the only thing we really agreed on was that everybody else was full of it... svo uco straight Veg oil used cooking oil hmpf lmpf... temps how to test... blah.... got really tiring and unproductive. Though your argument is very clever, I don't think it will lead to the results you desire. gandhi |
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When I refer to fat laden oil it's the saturated animal fats I'm talking about. ______________________________________ '97 Ford F-350 7.3L PSD - Plant Drive kit '84 Mercedes Euro 300D NA - Custom two-tank Running on vegoil and biodiesel since May 2006 |
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...which in practical terms is indistinguishable from hydrogenated veg-oil. --.- ..- . ... - .. --- -. / .- ..- - .... --- .-. .. - -.-- '89 Toyota 3.4L TDI + FPHE BD+ULSD+VO+JetB blends |
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I was really only trying to make the point that oil is fat. The main difference between the many greases/oils is just level of hydrogenation (amount of double bonds) of the glycosidic linkages, and the resulting varying melting points.
I'm a biochemist, so at times I tend to be too analytical but seeing this stuff is just inaccurate and I think will lead to more confusion, like when I'm wondering what kind of fat somebody is pulling out of oil, lol. |
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If one is running a heated fuel system the distinction between the clear oil and the 'creamy stuff' isn't important.
If one is running an unheated fuel system, then separating out the 'creamy stuff' before the fuel mix goes into the vehicle tank is important. Call the 'creamy stuff' whatever you want, it's not important as long as people know you're referring to the 'creamy stuff' that separates from clear oil when it gets cold. --.- ..- . ... - .. --- -. / .- ..- - .... --- .-. .. - -.-- '89 Toyota 3.4L TDI + FPHE BD+ULSD+VO+JetB blends |
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