quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
In a few years a lot of conversions will be running VO-ULSD blends because there's only enough "WVO" out there for a few elites to run 100%.

Only a select few though - the ones that are able to afford to purchase the ULSD to mix with the WVO!!!

I admire Forrest for writing the book, it no doubt took a lot of work, that's not an issue, and none of my comments are personal.
There are some unintended consequences worth addressing, however.

There's another book y'all should read, it has a classic story about a farmer who had a goose that laid golden eggs.

There is less "WVO" available than petro, a simple fact that many "SVO" aficionados conveniently ignore.

You can expect that the price of "WVO" will increase as the demand increases and the supply does not. In a short time it will be a big percent of the D2 pump price. More publicity and increased demand for "WVO" will make it happen sooner.

Chris, why haven't you responded to the fact that there's a big difference between educating people who are already reading an SVO forum and writing a book about SVO that will be actively promoted by booksellers and will be easilly noticeable on the shelves in the automotive sections of bookstores?

Some guy walks into a bookstore to browse and sees Forests book prominently displayed in the "new arrivals" section. Some lady walks into a bookstore to buy a book on basic auto maintenance and sees Forests book in the auto section.

You don't see any difference between educating those who are already aware of SVO and actively promoting it to the public?

I'm not defending John Galt, but geez man, the difference is rather obvious. John wasn't being hypocritical.

I am of the opinion it is better to keep quiet about veg oil use but have also pondered whether I am being a hypocrite by participating in forums.
Your point makes perfect sense to me welder and is indeed logical.
If someone is asking about filtering oil, its oil they have already acquired, If they want to know how best to convert their vehicle, they are going to convert it one way or another.
This is a whole lot different to telling people about veg that knew nothing before and getting them all excited abut it and them selling their cars so they can buy another one they can run for " free" on oil they have to get from the limited resources available.

Its really just like a secret isn't it?
If someone tells you something with someone else present and says Don't tell anyone, they would hardly be annoyed if you discussed what they mentioned in front of the other person that already knew.
Huge difference between that and going and discussing the matter with someone that DIDN"T know!

I'm with Chris on this.

While one can hash out the various minute reasons why there is a difference between Forest's book and John Galt's posts in various forums, the bottom line is the same - both promote the use of SVO. Both will increase competition for scarce WVO supplies. In the grand scheme of things, they are just 2 sides of the same coin.

quote:

In the grand scheme of things, they are just 2 sides of the same coin.

No they aren't.

Awareness is vital. If all the diesels in North America were to suddenly somehow magically be converted to SVO, there wouldn't be a drop of WVO left for the taking. It would all suddenly be going for $2.50 per gallon.

Telling the general public about SVO is worlds apart from advising newbies who have already discovered it.

quote:

Originally posted by welder:

quote:

In the grand scheme of things, they are just 2 sides of the same coin.

No they aren't.

Telling the general public about SVO is worlds apart from advising newbies who have already discovered it.

I agree completely.

I would suggest that if just 5% of all the diesel vehicles anywhere were suddenly to start using SVO or Home made Bio, There wouldn't be a drop of UCO to be found!

In order to do something one must be aware of it. Apart from the bucks those that are trying to cash in on it are making, I am yet to hear of exactly what is to be gained by telling the world or what motivates people to want to do this.

quote:

I agree completely.

Of course you do DCS, but then you see the whole picture clearly.

I think most people can see the difference between educating the general public about some formerly unbeknownst money saving opportunity and educating thos who already know of it.

I'm surprised Goodwin can't see it.

Too bad Forest didn't.

That's the difference between this forum run by biodiesel folks and Frybrid's company forum. Different styles providing contrasting venues for discussion. Both can be interesting and informative.

If my business was biodiesel related or SVO related I'd be marketing my stuff as quickly as possible before the growing demand saturates the supply. Books, kits, websites, plans, workshops, seminars...whatever it takes.

When the market saturates the limited supply, e-bay will be filled with VO stuff for sale and people will brag about how high the VO blend percent is in their two tank conversions.

N.America is moving toward a goal to put B5 in all ULSD and B20 as a premium fuel option at most pumps. A few dedicated homebrewers and SVO users loosing their supplies is collateral damage. The era of "Free WVO" is drawing to a close.

quote:

N.America is moving toward a goal to put B5 in all ULSD and B20 as a premium fuel option at most pumps. A few dedicated homebrewers and SVO users loosing their supplies is collateral damage. The era of "Free WVO" is drawing to a close.

It is probably already gone John. WVO is the cheapest feedstock for commercial biodiesel plants and as a result its' value is directly linked to the price of the "other biodiesel feestock"...SVO. However..though it will not be free it will probably remain a much lower cost fuel than petro/biodiesel blends indefinately.
And for large users of diesel fuel even a 20% savings in fuel costs is signficant.

I think this would make a very interesting discussion. So interesting I don;t think it shoudl be buried in this discussion about Forests book. Care to start a new thread?

My review of that book follows:
I have a mostly positive opinion of this book.

The Authors appear to encourage skepticism regarding the information they present and acknowledge very quickly in the introduction that the book represents only a “snapshot” of VO fuel conversion as they currently understand it. They also acknowledge that it is at least partly intended to help those considering buying a conversion kit to choose which one is the best.

The “short version” of my critique is:
Buy it.
I don’t think you will be disappointed unless you expect a manual explaining how to convert a diesel engine to VO fuel or a completely neutral POV on VO fuel and VO conversion. It is a quick, pleasant, and fairly easy read.

It is packed with mostly accurate information. (Nothing is perfect)
That information breaks down to approximately:
15 pages on diesel engine basics
45 pages on VO fuel properties
30 pages on general VO fuel conversion design
25 pages on “practical issues”
50 pages of appendices, notes, and bibliography

The “long version” is:
The information on diesel engine basics is clearly written, mostly impartial, and should provide VO conversion novices with the information they need to understand how a diesel engine works and why only diesel engines can be converted to VO fuel. While the majority of the information in this section can be easily found with a quick search of the internet I have never seen it all as well formatted or presented in any one place as well as it is in this book.

I believe that the 45 pages devoted to VO fuel properties will be of most interest to those interested in doing further research on this subject. It makes some extrapolations that I believe many might take issue with but provides quite a few references to the information most of those extrapolations are based upon. These in turn provide those who are strongly compelled to research this subject in more depth the opportunity to do so. Overall the majority of the information presented on this subject appears to be information which was developed by (and is commonly accepted by) the online VO community but is buried so deep in the archives of the online forums (and is so salted with flamefests) that for those interested in this subject these 45 pages alone are worth purchasing the book.

The 30 pages on system design appear to mainly be a section composed of information easily accessed via this forum combined with a low key pitch for Frybrid conversion kits. The manner in which most of the information is presented might easily lead the reader to believe that the majority of VO conversion innovations of the past few years were developed solely and entirely by the Authors however. I think even they would agree that is very difficult for ANYONE to honestly take credit for the concepts developed and discussed openly on online forums.

The information presented in the 25 page “practical issues” section appear to be openly gleaned from the information posted in VO conversion forums like this one. Unfortunately it does not appear to be as well researched or as clearly presented as the previous sections.

The largest single section of this book is comprised of the section containing the appendices, notes, and bibliography. And though the novice might tend to consider these 50 pages of little use I encourage them to read them since they indicate the original information source upon which many of the Authors conclusions presented in the previous pages. For those who are considering devoting any significant portion of their near future to the further development of VO fuel or VO fuel conversions these sections represent the single best compilation of information sources I have ever seen. As the authors note it is very difficult and/or expensive to access most of this information but simply having this list is well worth the cost of the book to anyone contemplating advanced experimentation with VO fuel production or use. Certainly ANYONE considering applying for federal or private grants related to VO fuel or VO fuel conversion should consider themselves lucky that this list exists ANYWHERE.

The majority of the information in this book (excluding the appendices and bibliography) can be found in the archives or links of this forum and it will be fairly obvious to long time forum lurkers that it originated here. Yet I can find no attribution or reference to this forum as and information source in the book. My only criticism of the authors is that they seem to imply that they developed most if not all of the recent useful innovations in the VO conversion “world”.

Despite its lack of attribution and open promotion of Frybrid conversion kits I would recommend this book to both those newly interested in VO conversion or anyone considering devoting themselves to serious research of VO fuel in the near future. It is not a “VO conversion manual”. Nor is it an unbiased compilation of useful information. But in my opinion it IS worth every cent of its purchase price.

quote:

Originally posted by welder:

quote:

In the grand scheme of things, they are just 2 sides of the same coin.

No they aren't.

Awareness is vital. If all the diesels in North America were to suddenly somehow magically be converted to SVO, there wouldn't be a drop of WVO left for the taking. It would all suddenly be going for $2.50 per gallon.

Telling the general public about SVO is worlds apart from advising newbies who have already discovered it.

I have to disagree.

Your basic assumption that you bring to this discussion is that only 'newbies' who have already discovered SVO come to this forum. I believe that is incorrect.

This forum is accessible to more of the general public (being on easy Internet search) than Forrest's book will ever be on a bookstore bookshelf. Information gleaned from this forum has a more widespread and universal effect than a single printed book. How many people would actually buy the book when they see it in a bookstand? Not too many. (I converted 2 late-model vehicles solely on the info I read from this and other forums without buying a single SVO book. I was not SVO aware before I stumbled onto this forum.)

This forum on the other hand exposes more information to more people, including a ton of 'SVO-unware' public. As a matter of fact, it can be rightly argued that John Galt's contributions help serve to promote SVO use more (by educating more people about how easy, cheap and straitforward it is to filter WVO) than Forrest's book will ever have. Influence and mindshare is directly proportional to the number of the audience, and this forum trumps any potential audience Forrest's book may have.

Me thinks that the real reason many people begrudge the book is that it allows Forrest to make a little money and that it also promotes the Frybrid system more than any other vendor. Or could it be that folks just don't like the influence that Forrest may win with his book. Or maybe, people think this is really Chris's book using Forrest as a simple front man.

(BTW, I am neither related to Frybrid nor have I bought, installed or used any Frybrid system or component. I just think Chris has a valid point against all the criticism towards Forrest's book, which I understand is pretty well researched and written.)

If one wanted to be really non-hypocritical about it, one should stop contributing to forums that promote WVO use. Or maybe one can highlight failures more than successes to discourage newbies. Or maybe, one should stop helping people who ask for help. I personally have stopped giving advise to people about my WVO system.

quote:

As a matter of fact, it can be rightly argued that John Galt's contributions help serve to promote SVO use more (by educating more people about how easy, cheap and straitforward it is to filter WVO) than Forrest's book will ever have. Influence and mindshare is directly proportional to the number of the audience, and this forum trumps any potential audience Forrest's book may have.

I see your point and concede that you might be right. I gave it some thought before sharing my ideas on the forums. The computer literate segment of the population is fairly small as compared with the general public. Someone has to dig for the information on the net. However, I certainly wouldn't create a website promoting VO use. That, in my mind, would be on par with publishing a book.

When the issue of 'shooting ourselves in the feet' came up a few months ago, I decided that I didn't have to answer all questions. I don't mind responding to an intelligent question that shows the person has done some research on the subject. The rest can wade the through the morass of misinformation, and use D$E for all I care. A lot of new VO users won't last through the upcoming winter.

I'd like to see all recycled VO used for reducing pollution by blending it with pump diesel instead of wasted in a landfill. In that respect, making it into commercial biodiesel provides the greatest domestic benefit, provided it doesn't get shipped abroad. Less pollution is generated by 5 vehicles burning B20 than one vehicle on 100% VO. The first 25% of VO/BD added reduces petro emissions by about 40%.

I 'pay' for my used VO by giving my contacts all of my 'dining out' business, and promoting their restaurants when someone asks about a good place to eat. I always have lunch there when I pick up oil. I found the places that produced the best oil and established a working relationship that wouldn't be affected by increasing popularity of VO fuel. The price of diesel fuel might keep increasing, and if I have to pay for used VO to keep a top quality source it won't stop me from using it.

quote:

The “short version” of my critique is:
Buy it.
I don’t think you will be disappointed unless you expect a manual explaining how to convert a diesel engine to VO fuel

What does this double speak actually mean, Dana?

How can you recomend people buy the book, then add that they'll be satisfied "UNLESS" the expect a manual explaining how to convert a diesel engine to VO fuel?

Obviously the book is intended to help people convert their diesels to SVO.

That's essentially saying the book isn't a manual on SVO conversion.

You yourself pointed out that the book has 30 pages on conversion design...

quote:

What does this double speak actually mean, Dana?

How can you recomend people buy the book, then add that they'll be satisfied "UNLESS" the expect a manual explaining how to convert a diesel engine to VO fuel?

Obviously the book is intended to help people convert their diesels to SVO.

That's essentially saying the book isn't a manual on SVO conversion.

I can understand your confusion if you have still not read the book yourself. I don't think it was written with the intention of providing the kind of specific information required to convert an engine to VO. A "manual" would contain that type of information.

Forest's book is more of a study as to WHY diesel engines will run on vegetable oil, not a "how-to" guide or manual on converting specific vehicles to a dual tank system. He does have a few diagrams of fuel systems, but not much in the way of underhood pictures of conversions. It's quite obvious that his target market was the folks that are interested in what makes a WVO conversion work and he provides information to allow a competent, mechanically-inclined individual to design and build a working WVO system.

If you are unable to turn a wrench, unfamiliar with your target vehicle's fuel system and didn't pay attention in high school chemistry, this book is probably a waste of your time (more accurate, the book would be wasted on you).

Most people will still have the "Ew - yuck" response to the idea of collecting used vegetable oil. As folks have pointed out - it is the commercial renderer collecting for biodiesel feedstock that is the "competition". Worry less about other WVO users!

Municipalities are a growing concern - they may
pass local laws to force the collection of WVO by the local government to supply them with biodiesel feedstock. That's what I'd be concerned about!!

quote:

Yes, I am beginning to wonder how reality could so easily elude you.

Your assumption that only 'SVO aware' people visit this forum is faulty. Like I said, I stumbled onto this forum after following a link from another forum that I found googling the word 'Duramax'.

I'm betting that you're in the minority. Most people here likely found this forum looking for info on biofuels, usually biodiesel.

It was already pointed out that although most people have some level of computer access, they still mostly rely on books. Books outsell personal computers by a huge margin.

Having noticed peoples general lack of ability to admit when they're wrong, I don't expect you to admit the error of your viewpoint anytime too soon. But then, why should you admit the obvious anyway?

Maybe after Forest has sold 50,000 copies and you have to pay $2 per gallon for WVO you'll see the "forest" through the trees.

quote:

Originally posted by welder:

quote:

Yes, I am beginning to wonder how reality could so easily elude you.

Your assumption that only 'SVO aware' people visit this forum is faulty. Like I said, I stumbled onto this forum after following a link from another forum that I found googling the word 'Duramax'.

I'm betting that you're in the minority. Most people here likely found this forum looking for info on biofuels, usually biodiesel.

It was already pointed out that although most people have some level of computer access, they still mostly rely on books. Books outsell personal computers by a huge margin.

Having noticed peoples general lack of ability to admit when they're wrong, I don't expect you to admit the error of your viewpoint anytime too soon. But then, why should you admit the obvious anyway?

Maybe after Forest has sold 50,000 copies and you have to pay $2 per gallon for WVO you'll see the "forest" through the trees.

I doubt Forest's book will sell 50,000 copies. Besides, this forum is already reaching 50,000 people.

I'm not encouraging Forest's book, I'm just saying there is not much difference between his book and the posts in this forum.

I would have to admit I think the position of participation in veg oil forums does at least partially promote veg use does have some foundation and that I also may be hypocritical in this respect, as much as hypocrisy is one of my deepest hates.

I think the greatest majority of people would come to sites like this already at least being aware of veg oil use as fuel especially given the mainstream media coverage of it. I would also say that if forums like this didn't exist and supply a wealth of information, even the fact that it is as wide spread a practice as it is and it's not just one crackpot doing it, there would be a lot less people coming into it.

By the same token though, I also think it is completely undeniable that the book will lead a lot of people that are not presently aware of veg oil, to end up using it and in fact put further strains on supplies in at least some area's where it is less than plentiful already.

As far as my own hypocrisy goes, I try to limit myself these days to commenting only to those that are clearly well beyond the " Newbie" stage and are already committed to veg use.
I was recently asked to participate in a new local DIY type veg forum and supply the core info for its startup. With some very insightful input from some people here ( thank you sincerely to those people!) and in discussion with my local veg friends, I decided to turn the opportunity down, even though it was something I would have loved to have done for some time.

I have ( along with a lot of my veg friends) also made a conscious decision that I will not be showing my setups and offering help to newbies because it is completely counter productive to my being able to use this resource in the ( near) future. This was compounded by what amounted to a scare recently where the amount of people calling, emailing and showing up unannounced on my doorstep started getting out of control virtually overnight. Other friends near me and people on these boards gave similar accounts and I think I am lucky to have been given their insight so I could nip it in the bud before things got waaaay out of hand.

Even here, things are simply not what they were 12 months ago and the writing is clearly on the wall that demand is already outstripping supply in many areas all around the world. A good friend that has been doing Bio many years is also in deep deliberation as to wether he should upsize his reactor so he can continue to produce fuel for the needs of his sons and himself as he has significant concerns as to how long he may be able to get enough oil to make the exercise worth while and if all the people making a big fuss are going to draw the attention of government departments who are turning a blind eye to home Bio now.

I don't know anyone that does not have a profitable financial interest in this cause that cannot see being quiet about this is the only sensible and practical thing we should be doing.

Perhaps there is something to be learned for those like myself out of this discussion and that would be that perhaps our good intents to want to help others and share the knowledge many of us have worked hard to gain is misplaced in this arena and we do need to have a re-think about exactly what info we share and the ramifications of that.

I fear Welder that if you don't hurry up and get yourself up and running on veg, it won't be worth worrying about at all.

quote:

Besides, this forum is already reaching 50,000 people.

I'm not sure the true membership and activity stats actually support that assertion. I'm betting that nearly 50,000 people know of this site, but active membership and regular hit (cookie) count are much lower (more like 5-10,000).

quote:

I fear Welder that if you don't hurry up and get yourself up and running on veg, it won't be worth worrying about at all.

Point taken.

I've ordered a special coupler for coupling a 12 DC motor to my gear pump to build The Frankenpump, and I've already got a bypass regulator to moderate pressure and flow. When it's fully assembled, this thing should easilly outperform both the F.A.S.S. pump and The Raptor too.

I built a custom TIG welded and custom machined coolant heated veggie filter, but I decided that I'm not satisfied with using a Goldenrod 10 micron (nominal) element as the heart of my veggie filter, so I'm looking for a more suitable element for this application.

I may just cave in and slap a VW oil cooler HE under a remote oil filter mount, then throw a couple wraps of heater hose around the spin-on can.

I was going to build an internally heated spin-on filter, but there was some concern over effectiveness. I may still build the thing anyway, then plumb it in with a selector valve to choose between that filter and whatever else I go with on the veggie line. That way I can test both. At least one filter should work acceptably. I'd kinda like to build a drop-in style veggie filter though.