quote:

this has usually been associated with high water levels in VO fuel COMBINED with use of these metals.

Would you please site any research papers reflecting this information.

quote:

I do believe steel will be my metal of choice! But I think I will Red Cote it also.

I have yet to find a paint which will hold up. Have yoiu considered high density poly ethelene? I have been working with it as a test for over a year and as long as the tank heating is done properly it has had great results. Check out plastic mart at http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?cat=12 for bus applications I have also found inexpensive ($1 per gallon) tanks made from aluminum, these were built as external tanks for semi's but had blemishes and are sold as scrap.

quote:

Originally posted by cgoodwin1:

quote:

I do believe steel will be my metal of choice! But I think I will Red Cote it also.

I have yet to find a paint which will hold up.

Chris, I am making a steel tank for my e300d conversion. My plan is to use POR15... have you ever tried that?

Yes, it peals off of aluminum after only a few months, I have not tried it on Mild steel but if it does not hold up on aluminum I think it will be an issue on MS as well.

Realistically OP occures under the right conditions, so if you limit them you should be ok, if you use mild steel but do not heat the tank at all you MAY be ok, I have seen at least one conversion with a mild steel tank and no heat that was still fine after a year. I have seen several mild steel tanks with heat that were gunked up in no time.

See this post by FN74 with photos http://www.frybrid.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6614

Cgoodwin, (Chris I believe?)
How are ya doing? Chaz here, from the MAK bus board. Haven't heard from you in awhile. I guess the "ol'guys" from the bus board just weren't worth the trouble. I TOTALLY understand! Altho I frequent that board, I told them I would no longer contribute to the topic of alternate fuels. It got old. "You can lead'em to water, but...........!" But there are still a couple who want to do it and talk about it. I may just drag them over here.
Anyway, I'm glad I happened upon ya again. I was going to be trying to get ahold of you to see how the bus project was coming and hopefully get some equiptment from you. I am in the process of getting the collection and filtering stuff together and getting ready to do the bus. (hence this thread)
Ok, now back to subject:
As you can see by the prices, steel is by far the best price. Plus, I prefer metal, of some sort, just because I can do ANYTHING to it I want. (I have also learned to weld plastic recently but that stuff is out of sight expensive too!! I would rather do Stainless!)
The Red Cote I mentioned is a gas tank sealer. I THINK it will be ok as I believe I read where there are a few people using it. I think MEK and one other solvent can cut it, but not much else. But don't take my word as fact. I'm going to talk to the manufacturer before I use it.
I want to fab my own tank so I can get the max fuel in the smallest space. The bus is a big vehicle, but a small house!!!
I will make the top seperate and bolt it down so i can coat it easier.

If ya get a chance, and ya have time, I'd like to hear how your bus is working out. (or really, anybody who did a bus. I can use pointers! )

take care,
Chaz

Thanks Chris!

I now wonder if I am better off leaving bare steel than having loose paint clogging filters in a few months.

As for polymerization, it seems as though the use of COPPER heat exchangers is a recurring theme. My plan was to use heat on the OUTSIDE of the tank, right where the fuel pickup will be.

By using a well designed heated fuel pickup only the fuel about to be removed from the tank is heated/liquified while the rest of the fuel will remain cool. Even those steel tanks that have a heated fuel pickup that remains completely submerged seem to avoid any serious polymerized VO accretions. I have seem dozens of mild steel tanks that had this arrangement for years with NO polymerization except at the vent and fill neck.

Generally it is only steel tanks that have very oversized and unregulated heaters that exhibit any serious VO polymerization..and the main consequance of that is that VO filters need ot be change more often than they would other wise. Of course it is good practice to change your VO filter at every other lube oil change anyway so it is possible that many simply do not notice this most serious of polymerization problem.

I like aluminum and poly tanks. But avoiding mild steel tanks due to the fear of VO polymeization in them is an over-reaction IMO. If you can easily afford an aluminum tank use one. If not consider poly tanks. They come in a LOT of sizes and shapes. (A list of many vendors of poly tanks is available at: )http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1900098

And don't be discouraged if you can't find a tank that exactly fits your needs with the perfect fittings. You CAN buy a blank tank and either have fittings instaled to your specs at a reasonable cost..or drill the holes and add your own. There are fittings avaialbe that do nto require the equipmnt and skill required to weld plastic. For more inforamation on fabricating VO tanks look at:http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1957411 and http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1178812 and http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1797033

quote:

quote:
this has usually been associated with high water levels in VO fuel COMBINED with use of these metals.
----------------

Would you please site any research papers reflecting this information.

From the Beatty Report.

quote:

Oxidation (Auto-oxidation) is a reaction in which Oxygen attacks
an unsaturated fatty acid at the Carbon molecule immediately
adjacent to the unsaturated site(where a Carbon has a double bond
with another Carbon). Several factors have been identified as promoting this reaction,
they are in order of declining importance:
1. Availability of Oxygen- fuel storage tanks provide an ample
supply of oxygen for the reaction.
2. Heat- A rule of thumb in chemistry is that the rate of a
reaction doubles with ever 10 deg C increase in temperature,
however it has been suggested that the oxidation reaction
may even triple with every 10 deg C. (2)
3. Presence of Pro-Oxidants-Some Pro-Oxidants found in Veg
Oil systems in order of decreasing activity, Copper, Mild
Steel, Zinc, Aluminum.
4. Light- Ultraviolet light can act as a pro-oxidant.
5. Time- Longer exposures increase the degree of oxidation.

Now, tying all of these reactions together, free fatty acids, even
thou only sparingly soluble, are carried in any water present and
can therefore attack any metals they encounter. These metal ions
can then catalyze the oxidation reaction.

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Fuel_Tank_Sealer.html

steel tank you may want to take a look at this product

if you have time take a look at this link lots of wvo tank ideas

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/7591014102/p/1

good luck Omar
www.omarsales.com

I have a steel tank in my latest Rabbit that has been in use for almost 3 years. It was fabbed from a 55 gallon barrel and fits in the spare tire well. You can see the original conversion(long gone) at www.frytech.blogspot.com . Last year I left the tank almost empty for a few months while I drove my Sammy and looked for another Rabbit and it developed polymerization on the sides and top above the oil level. When I put the new conversion on the road I put a small NAPA inline filter before my main vegoil filter to clean up the tank. I went through 4 or 5 of the 3 dollar filters before I got the tank cleaned up to where it never plugs the filters anymore. My Samurai uses the stock steel tank with a heated fuel pickup. I removed the stock fuel pump and sawed a 2 inch hole in the mounting plate. Into this hole I brazed a 2 inch copper pipe with caps and elbows to make a coolant heated pickup. With a HOH system I drove it last year at minus 20 dgrees on WVO. It has worked so far without issues.

quote:

Chris, I am making a steel tank for my e300d conversion. My plan is to use POR15... have you ever tried that?

If you can make your tank with a bolt on top, so you have good acess to the inside,
Spray on truck bed liner material, and baked on coaings seem to be holding up well against VO.

Bedliner?

How many years have you had that setup?

FWIW, I think I will make a 3 small steel tanks in my samurai, and try some different coatings just to see what holds up.

Great Idea, Jake.
That kind of info would help lots of people.
Please keep us informed.

I also thought the bolt-on top would be an advantage down the road.........maybe. I plan on heating the outside of the tank in a bottom corner so as to not heat the whole tank. Other wise, having a removable top would be nice to check on that and anything else inside.
Are you sure a bedliner material would hold up?? Interesting thought. But Rhino is probably one of the only ones I would trust. The DIYer's aren't "all that and a bag of chips".

Dana, thanks for the link that led me to a poly tank in the dimensions I need for $115.00. The attached jpg are the specs. Can I get away with hanging it upside down, filler cap on the bottom and putting the end of the arctic fox in the well that would be created by the filler cap using it as a sump? What would be an effective method to keep the cap from becoming loose on it's own?

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:
By using a well designed heated fuel pickup only the fuel about to be removed from the tank is heated/liquified while the rest of the fuel will remain cool. Even those steel tanks that have a heated fuel pickup that remains completely submerged seem to avoid any serious polymerized VO accretions. I have seem dozens of mild steel tanks that had this arrangement for years with NO polymerization except at the vent and fill neck.

Generally it is only steel tanks that have very oversized and unregulated heaters that exhibit any serious VO polymerization..and the main consequance of that is that VO filters need ot be change more often than they would other wise. Of course it is good practice to change your VO filter at every other lube oil change anyway so it is possible that many simply do not notice this most serious of polymerization problem.

I like aluminum and poly tanks. But avoiding mild steel tanks due to the fear of VO polymeization in them is an over-reaction IMO. If you can easily afford an aluminum tank use one. If not consider poly tanks. They come in a LOT of sizes and shapes. (A list of many vendors of poly tanks is available at: )http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1900098

And don't be discouraged if you can't find a tank that exactly fits your needs with the perfect fittings. You CAN buy a blank tank and either have fittings instaled to your specs at a reasonable cost..or drill the holes and add your own. There are fittings avaialbe that do nto require the equipmnt and skill required to weld plastic. For more inforamation on fabricating VO tanks look at:http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1957411 and http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1178812 and http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/voconversionbasics/vpost?id=1797033

quote:

quote:
this has usually been associated with high water levels in VO fuel COMBINED with use of these metals.
----------------

Would you please site any research papers reflecting this information.

From the Beatty Report.

quote:

Oxidation (Auto-oxidation) is a reaction in which Oxygen attacks
an unsaturated fatty acid at the Carbon molecule immediately
adjacent to the unsaturated site(where a Carbon has a double bond
with another Carbon). Several factors have been identified as promoting this reaction,
they are in order of declining importance:
1. Availability of Oxygen- fuel storage tanks provide an ample
supply of oxygen for the reaction.
2. Heat- A rule of thumb in chemistry is that the rate of a
reaction doubles with ever 10 deg C increase in temperature,
however it has been suggested that the oxidation reaction
may even triple with every 10 deg C. (2)
3. Presence of Pro-Oxidants-Some Pro-Oxidants found in Veg
Oil systems in order of decreasing activity, Copper, Mild
Steel, Zinc, Aluminum.
4. Light- Ultraviolet light can act as a pro-oxidant.
5. Time- Longer exposures increase the degree of oxidation.

Now, tying all of these reactions together, free fatty acids, even
thou only sparingly soluble, are carried in any water present and
can therefore attack any metals they encounter. These metal ions
can then catalyze the oxidation reaction.

RTB00050-041.jpg (310 Kb, 16 downloads)

quote:

Can I get away with hanging it upside down, filler cap on the bottom and putting the end of the arctic fox in the well that would be created by the filler cap using it as a sump?

I have no idea if that is possible. The jpg is not clear enough to tell what size the filler cap is. It may be large enough to add a smaller more effective aluminum coolant heated pickup. Email me for more info on that if you are interested.

quote:

Originally posted by Skulptor:
Cgoodwin, (Chris I believe?)
How are ya doing? Chaz here, from the MAK bus board. Haven't heard from you in awhile. I guess the "ol'guys" from the bus board just weren't worth the trouble. I TOTALLY understand! Altho I frequent that board, I told them I would no longer contribute to the topic of alternate fuels. It got old. "You can lead'em to water, but...........!" But there are still a couple who want to do it and talk about it. I may just drag them over here.
Anyway, I'm glad I happened upon ya again. I was going to be trying to get ahold of you to see how the bus project was coming and hopefully get some equiptment from you. I am in the process of getting the collection and filtering stuff together and getting ready to do the bus. (hence this thread)
Ok, now back to subject:
As you can see by the prices, steel is by far the best price. Plus, I prefer metal, of some sort, just because I can do ANYTHING to it I want. (I have also learned to weld plastic recently but that stuff is out of sight expensive too!! I would rather do Stainless!)
The Red Cote I mentioned is a gas tank sealer. I THINK it will be ok as I believe I read where there are a few people using it. I think MEK and one other solvent can cut it, but not much else. But don't take my word as fact. I'm going to talk to the manufacturer before I use it.
I want to fab my own tank so I can get the max fuel in the smallest space. The bus is a big vehicle, but a small house!!!
I will make the top seperate and bolt it down so i can coat it easier.

If ya get a chance, and ya have time, I'd like to hear how your bus is working out. (or really, anybody who did a bus. I can use pointers! )

take care,
Chaz

Hey Chaz, I have not had much time for the bus boards and don't really get my bus out in the winter. Some details are at www.frybrid.com/bus.htm but it is a little old. I added two 30k roof top AC units this last summer and did a two week trip across the deserts of Washington and a couple trips down the coast.

Aluminum is the least expensive metal that has low reactivity (1/2 that of mild steel), stainless is nice but tends to be brittle which is why marine and race tanks are almost alwasy made from 5052, it has good corosion characteristics and can be bent at 90 without stress cracking. Building a tank with a removable top will require quite a bit of strengthening as you loose a lot of suructural ridgidity when you have a removable top, I would suggest just installing a hatch or two but really if you are building it into the bus why not just have a drain or two and be done with it, if you are going to open it up you would likely need to remove it anyway and unless you really do something questionable I do not see the need to remove it at all. Remember most marine tanks are built into the boat...

Another interesting issue is that when VO polymerized it can forum a skin on mild steel but not on aluminum, so not only does iot take twice as long for the oil to polymerize, but it can not form a skin. The Beatty report on the oxidative polymerization of veg oil is a contentious report with those who sell plans to make components from copper as it showed what the medical and vegetable oil industries already knew, that VO polymerized rapidly in the presence of copper. A part of the report which is often quoted is:

"It is important to note here that no correlation is suggested between the times required to initiate rapid oxidation reported in this study and “real life” operating conditions nor is it felt that any such relationship can be formulated. These test conditions rapidly accelerate oxidation by agitation, which greatly increases the exposure of the oil to oxygen."

but they neglect the rest of the paragraph which reads"

"The only conclusions that may be drawn are then relative differences between different pro-oxidants, no pro-oxidant, and copper pro-oxidant with antioxidants and metal deactivator."

Wha tit all boils down to is this:

Vegetable oil suffers oxidative polymerization, this reaction requires 02 but there is little we can easily do about that since we live on a planet where 20% of the atmosphere is 02. The things which accelerate it are reactive metals, heat, and time. Each of these should be minimized where ever possible. Try not to use reactive metals or to use the least reactive, try not to use any more heat than is nessesary and don't heat it at all when not being used, and finally, don't build a tank any larger than you will use in a reasonable period of time.

I have a 150 gallon tank on my bus and storage for almost that much again which is removable, when I am not using the bus I drain the tank and flush the system with diesel to store the bus over the winter.

You will also want to consider a quite large filter for your bus and the use of a Frybrid controlled loop plumbing system as the "Screamin' Jimmy" moves quite a bit of fuel. Oh, also remember that the fitting on the heads where the return line attaches is not jsut a fitting but is also a restricted orifice designed to maintain rail pressure.

quote:

The things which accelerate it are reactive metals, heat, and time. Each of these should be minimized where ever possible.

All of which are really of little concern unless WATER is present in sufficient quantites to activate the metal catalyzation according to the BEatty report.

Water in VO fuel..in a fuel tank..steel..or aluminum is not only likly to cause SOME accelleration of VO polymerization (which may cause minor problems like premature filter clogging) it is likely to cause IP and injector damage. Sufficiently dewater wvoor svo fuel and the metals present will not cause polymerization to proceed at a noticibly different rate.

But if one is obesessive about avoiding in tank VO polymerization I suppose a plastic tank is the only way to go. And plastic tanks are available in such a plethora of sizes and dimensions that especially for large tanks it is undeniably the least expensive option as well.

Chris,
Hey man, thanx for the word on metals. I will keep it in mind, but I'm not sure I want to swing aluminum. The price is rather lopsided. I'm figuring I will need 3 sheets as it's going to hold 200 gallons. That may seem excessive, but I don't think I want to do any processing on the road unless I need to.
I do appreciate insight that you drain and flush yours for winter. I believe I may do that also, if I'm not going to use it. I am storing in a 325 gallon tote and will be using the oil in a converted fuel oil furnace in the winter.
Structural integrity will not be an issue as I have a welding and fab company. (the baffles will do a good job at holding it firm.)
I still need to figure out what exactly I need, and what I need to do to convert it. Can you give me some insight on this? Can I contact you on your site for this?? I am very mechanically adept, but don't know much about an 8V71 Detroit.

Thanx again!!!!
chaz

These engines have a unique fuel system layout, I wanted to add that I'm looking forward to results of this conversion. There is very little info out there on the 2-cycle detroit running SVO. Phil

You are right Phil. I'm sure there are some that have been done and I hope to get their input before i get to far along. I'd rather not "reinvent the mousetrap" if I don't have to. But I'm all about helping to improve it!!
If I don't find anyone out there that can help with it, I guess I will go with the two basic concerns: filter it good and heat it good. And of course keep an eye on things. (filters, oil analasis, smoothness of the engine, smoke, etc. etc. etc.)
I should probably start another thread about this too. lol

quote:

But if one is obesessive about avoiding in tank VO polymerization I suppose a plastic tank is the only way to go.

Thanx Dana, but I want a metal tank. It's what I can do. I like things to fit and take as little space as possible. And since I can do it custom, why not?!?! Hopefully there is a coating that doesn't cost an arm and a "left one" and will stand up to the WVO. I'm leaning towards Red Cote, as I have used it before, but will ask the company first.
Thanx again guys,

quote:

Originally posted by Skulptor:

quote:

But if one is obesessive about avoiding in tank VO polymerization I suppose a plastic tank is the only way to go.

Thanx Dana, but I want a metal tank. It's what I can do. I like things to fit and take as little space as possible. And since I can do it custom, why not?!?! Hopefully there is a coating that doesn't cost an arm and a "left one" and will stand up to the WVO. I'm leaning towards Red Cote, as I have used it before, but will ask the company first.

Let us know what they say.

I checked with a few suppliers yesterday, and Red Kote can't be shipped to Canuckistan, so looks like that's out for me. I'm now leaning towards leaving the inside of the tank bare, and crossing my fingers.

For what it's worth my 5 gallon mild steel tank in my Jetta, with a hot water element and a heated pickup installed { I know my bad} shows no sign of skin at all, chicken or otherwise. I only notice the brown ear wax crap on the filler spout and vent. Not a problem after 2 years and counting. I have a removable top so I can inspect. -35 celcius the other day and a 20 mph wind. 140 to 150 wvo temps = one damn good system!!