http://www.caltradereport.com/eWebPages/page-two-1053055477.html

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/fuels/proformix/index.shtml

From our favorite Diesel purge company..
http://www.lubrizol.com/PuriNOx/default.asp

Gunnermans Co

http://www.cleanfuelstech.com/Products.htm

Clean Fuel Technology's emulsified fuels are made from water and petroleum products such as diesel, naphtha, #6 fuel oil and asphalts. The blending of water and petroleum into a stable emulsion is a result of the chemical reaction of our proprietary additives and passing all three fluids through our blending units.

http://www.earthisland.org/project/newsPage2.cfm?newsID=617&pageID=177&subSiteID=44
Why didn't Gunnerman's radical water-based fuels make a big splash in the marketplace? In these days of peaking oil production and rising gas prices, that's a question well worth asking.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sushi Blender,

lots of interesting stuff in those links....
but after all is said and done it apears for the money and the hassle that your ahead using WVO straight or with some sort of low cost blend ...gasoline,diesel or whatever trips your trigger...
the cost of naptha even if it is mixed 50% with water is still probably 2 times or more expensive than diesel and it seems that when you read the fine print that its not an indefinite suspension nor is it really the case ,by what i read at least, mixed 50% with water..(at least not with all the vendors).It seems in most cases to be a much lower percentage of water.
also water freezes at 32F so there you go again trying to make it liquid when the temp goes below freezing.
This however does raise a very big question in my mind... How is it that they were so successful in running LARGE quantities of WATER through thier injection pumps...with no reported failures??
The only guess i have is that the water was spread "so thin" that it didnt make it an issue.

quote:

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How is it that they were so successful in running LARGE quantities of WATER through thier injection pumps...with no reported failures??
The only guess i have is that the water was spread "so thin" that it didnt make it an issue.

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Viscosity and lubrisity. The emulsifying agents can hold oil in a suspension of water. Many machine type factories use emulsified oil in water for lubrication, I worked in a steel stud factory in my youth. Large rolls of steel (looking very much like roofing flashing) are feed through a series of rollers (dyes) until the stud is shaped. The rollers are on a tub like table that has a series of nozzles that contiually pump the water/oil over the rollers and steel, to keep them cool and moving.

quote:

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the cost of naptha even if it is mixed 50% with water is still probably 2 times or more expensive than diesel

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Only in the world of marketing and packaging. Naptha is one of the most abundent solvents from a barrel of crude and can be had on first pass.

I've been trying to find out what emulsifiers are being used. This would take care of water contamination issues with blending and wvo use in general.

A water -oil emulsion used in cooling/lubricating a steel rolling plant is a far cry from the specifications required to cool/lubricate etc the intrnals of a high pressure IP.

Forget even going down that path!

It's called analogy. With an emphsis on the anal part for you my friend

Ok how much can you get naptha for per gallon?
At one of the sites you posted i saw a MSDS sheet but it said that the ingredient would only be given out to emergency personel...fire/doctor types i guess.
Maybe you could arrange for an emergency.
Somebody somewhere has to know.

quote:

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Ok how much can you get naptha for per gallon?

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I'm not talking about a backyard guy buying naptha in 1 gallon can from paint shops. Imagine the price of gasoline if it were packaged and distributed that way
I'm talking about the cost for distillation processing is cheaper than gasoline

Now the way I plan to use it is to try to oversaturate RUG with it. In the distillery Naptha is used to to boost octane value. Some OTC (over the counter) octane boosters use it also. Oncethe gasoline has been blended at the distillery, boosting octane is finite using naptha. Too much naptha added after market (seems to be 20% or greater) will actually decrease octane numbers. Which is a good thing for diesels.

Ok
What i meant was what is the price per gallon that you may be able to aquire naptha for in various quantities.
If i have to get it in a rail car thats ok...
but i still would like to know how much it is per gallon.
Whats the best bulk rate how many dollars/gallons.?

There was a gentleman who had an office just around the corner from where I once worked in Sparks NV. He was doing water/fuel emulsion fuels. I tried several times to contact him cause I had great interest. Suddenly one day a thought slapped me across the face.

WATER; a primary basis of LIFE, should NEVER become a commodity tangled in with the likes of oil.

This is a path we in this world MUST not travel. There is much political power behind fuel. Fuel Power or lack of it can make or break whole nations. IMHO when you mix water into this fray; you are embarking on a long journey that will be immensely debilitating to mankind as a whole.

JMJ,
Are you feeling ok ?
regards
dva

quote:

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Originally posted by dva:
JMJ,
Are you feeling ok ?
regards
dva

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feeling fine. One of the topics of this discussion is emulsifing water into fuel. I've been a closet alt. fuel junky for 30 years. I got wind of the water/fuel actually being put onto the road nearly 10 years ago. With much thought I came up with my thoughts as posted in my message above.

quote:

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WATER; a primary basis of LIFE, should NEVER become a commodity tangled in with the likes of oil.

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JMJ,
That was probably Gunnerman you were next to.

Whether H2O is used for fuel or not it is a commodity already. There are water fights, still today in the west (USA). It will only get worse
with futher population expansion through out known desert reigons. I have herd it said that if global warming continues, water wars will make the oil wars look tame.

That was an interesting insight JMJ.

Doom and Gloom soap box....OFF

quote:

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Ok
What i meant was what is the price per gallon that you may be able to aquire naptha for in various quantities.
If i have to get it in a rail car thats ok...
but i still would like to know how much it is per gallon.
Whats the best bulk rate how many dollars/gallons.?

---

Wanna, Talk to Todd T, he mentioned having a barrel of mostly aromatic
Naptha. I'm sure he knows. Possibly you could talk to a petrol hauler or call a local refinery, I'm sure they could give you a bulk price also. Post it if you find out, I'll try to look also.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sushi Blender,

JMJ,
I think I see what you are gettin at. Took me a while though.
Was it Ed Myres (sic) that pulled a scam with water power some years ago. The water powered VW dune buggy. I have to admit that I have thought seriously about ways of cracking water into it's constituent parts for use as a fuel. Something about the nitrogen in the air shoots it all down though.
The folk over on Alt.hydrigen get very uptight when they are discussing it.
regards
dva

Sushi,

you asked in your first post:

"Why didn't Gunnerman's radical water-based fuels make a big splash in the marketplace? In these days of peaking oil production and rising gas prices, that's a question well worth asking."

either he didnt grease the right political palms or didnt grease them as much as big oil.

WH

Perhaps Im particularly slow tonight, but I cant see what advantage adding water in the form of emulsion to fuel would give--It surely would reduce the energy content per litre, therefore you need to burn more.....Maybe this is the idea???

H.C.II, At-- Addled brain Divn, SWC

Reduse NOX & PM's

quote:

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Originally posted by High Compression II:
Perhaps Im particularly slow tonight, but I cant see what advantage adding water in the form of emulsion to fuel would give--It surely would reduce the energy content per litre, therefore you need to burn more.....Maybe this is the idea???

H.C.II, At-- Addled brain Divn, SWC

---

WH, Yep don't I know it. Also the big boys got into the act. Gunnerman had/has a suit against CAT. He claims CAT stole his ideas and brought them to Chevron. Known as proformix. Seems big biz didn't want any little upstarts horning in.
So did CAT go to Chevron or vice versa

All those guys from CAT , ENRON , CHEVRON ,BECHTEL, KELLOGG BROWN AND ROOT, THE WHITE HOUSE, HALLIBURTON are in the same FRAT and go on woodland creature killing trips together. What a sickening lot of cretins! They were probably yucking it up, over scotch and whores, at stealing gunnermans ideas.

warhorse

http://www.sulphco.com/about.htm

In 1998, Dr. Rudolf W. Gunnerman funded research at the University of Southern California for the removal of sulfur from oil using ultrasound technology. This project was led by Dr. Teh Fu Yen, a Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Southern California to eliminate the high temperatures and high pressures and therefore high costs associated with traditional desulfurization technologies.

Through this research agreement, SulphCo, Inc. became the owner of the ultrasound technology. SulphCo has since conducted additional research and development to improve the process and make it commercially viable.

In August 2004 Sulphco entered into a Collaboration Agreement with ChevronTexaco Energy Technology Co., a unit of ChevronTexaco Corp., to further develop SulphCo, Inc.'s ultrasound technology. The ultimate goal is to optimize SulphCo's technology and expedite widespread commercialization


When the big boys came in the stock went from less than a dollar to $4 and change now.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r105:E15DE7-219:
More on Gunnerman

Ya know Tim mentioned simple green, I wonder if it would be a good surfactant to make A-21 or A-55?


http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/gasification/current/msg00042.html
Hello Kevin and all,

Emulsifying a small amount of water into diesel makes modest improvements in
the performance of diesel fuels. There is a good reference in my paper
cited in this e-mail.

The question is -- it worth the effort to maintain the stability of the
emulsion during normal fuel storage and movement activities to achieve
modest performance improvements? I am not sure at this point.

Gunnerman claims special additives but I very much doubt their unique
properties. Perhaps just PR.

I proposed making a very economical emulsifier from a biomass source, soy
oil. If it were applied to "all" diesel fuel this could be a significant
use for soy oil -- perhaps better than biodiesel. My paper is referenced
as follows:

Parker, H.W., R.W. Tock, M.P. Kumar, & J. Bailey, "Eco-Friendly Diesel Fuel
Additive," Paper 244i, Annual National American Institute of Chemical
Engineers Meeting, Los Angles, Nov. 16-21, (1997).

The graduate student I was supporting on the project left and I did not push
the project further. I would be pleased to renew this research, if funds
were available.

Harry W. Parker, Ph.D., P.E.
Professor of Chemical Engineering
& Consulting Engineer
Texas Tech University
Lubbock, TX 79409-3121
806.742.1759 fax 742.3552

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sushi Blender,

All this talk of emulsifiers is very interesting. In my chemical cleaning company, I work with all sorts of solvents, emulsifiers, surfactants and rust inhibitors. But, I wouldn't rush to start adding things to my fuel beyond highly filtered veggie.

Some one mentioned Simple Green. Its a good detergent blend... but not an emulsifier.

There are different types of emulsions: mechanical, water in oil and oil in water. The mechanical emulsion is the water in our waste veggie. Going through the pump, it gets all mixed up with the veggie oil and turns milky. Give it time and the mechanical emulsion will separate out.

Simple Green is probably more of an example of oil in water emulsion (though more micelle action than emulsification in reality). You have ingredients that dissolve the oil and keep it suspended in the water for a time.

Water in oil emulsions are mostly oil (like our veggie) and contain a little water. In the past, I've had trouble getting the water to break back out (good for fuels) for disposal purposes. I even collected a drum of rinse water from an industrial project in Texas years ago just to experiment with the breaking of this emulsion.

This technology is way over my head... but I can see where it is entirely feasible. If I had a month to spend in my lab and a spare diesel to play with it would be a fun project. But not in my Powerstroke that I use to drive all over the country.

In the meantime, if I can help anybody with answering some 'what if' questions (like Simple Green) please contact me. I'm not a white coat scientist but a 'meat and potatoes' formulator.

Todd T