http://www.kansascity.com/business/story/1299981.html

The year is 2020 and the gasoline tax is history. In its place you get a monthly tax bill based on each mile you drove — tracked by a Global Positioning System device in your car and uploaded to a billing center.

Big brother is alive and well - all is proceeding according to plan...

New Zea land for one has this mileage system. As I understand it, You pay for your miles in advance and are issued a certificate which you have to produce if you are pulled over. If your mileage is higher than you have paid for, big fines are levied against you.

Truck operators have odometers installed in the axles which record mileage and tax is paid accordingly.

It would be far more desirable to have a satellite system than an odometer because satellite jamming is so much easier to do.
Just turn on your Jammer and drive around without big brother having a clue.

I'll keep driving my "no electronics" cars, thank you very much. They will have to read the odometer if they want my mileage.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunrise Club:
I'll keep driving my "no electronics" cars, thank you very much. They will have to read the odometer if they want my mileage.

You're missing the point, they may force you to do it if you want to drive legally.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunrise Club:
I'll keep driving my "no electronics" cars, thank you very much. They will have to read the odometer if they want my mileage.

Yup, mine too. No way is any gummint gonna stick some tracker on my truck.

quote:

You're missing the point, they may force you to do it if you want to drive legally.

Maybe where you live. I rather doubt it will happen in the foreseeable future. Likely never up-here. There's a lot of independent minded Libertarians here who won't put up with that sort of gummint interference in their lives. People generally get the government they deserve.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:

Maybe where you live. I rather doubt it will happen in the foreseeable future. Likely never up-here. There's a lot of independent minded Libertarians here who won't put up with that sort of gummint interference in their lives. People generally get the government they deserve.

Most so called Patriots will roll over and piss themselves when commanded to by the man. As with everything else it will be done via incrementalism.

If it ain't broke, why try to 'fix' it? The fuel tax is fair because it targets the heavy fuel guzzlers that make the most pollution and wear the roads more. It's also simple and easy to administer.

They effectively have a weight-mile tax for trucks in Oregon now. I think one just reports the mileage which is correlated with the GVW the vehicle is licensed as.

The concern, of course, is tracking the electric vehicles & plug-in hybrids. What about those people feeding their EVs with solar panels? And, while at the moment they can quietly slip through the cracks while we encourage economy, that won't be practical forever.

And, punitive registration fees aren't practical either.

They could require separate metering for EVs and Plug-in-Hybrids. But, it would be very difficult to enforce. What about charging at motels, or friends/relatives houses?

I'm busily rolling forward my odometer... I guess I will have to stop that immediately!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
If it ain't broke, why try to 'fix' it? The fuel tax is fair because it targets the heavy fuel guzzlers that make the most pollution and wear the roads more. It's also simple and easy to administer.

Road taxes are routinely misused by state and local governments, if the revenue from fuel taxes was actually used to maintain our roads we'd have much better roads. Just another way to squeeze more money from us and move us into the tyranny of neomercantilism even faster.

quote:

Originally posted by keelec:

The concern, of course, is tracking the electric vehicles & plug-in hybrids. What about those people feeding their EVs with solar panels? And, while at the moment they can quietly slip through the cracks while we encourage economy, that won't be practical forever.

Why should EV vehicles pay taxes twice? Taxes for electricity are already paid by those pluggin them in.

quote:

Originally posted by mankypro:

quote:

Originally posted by keelec:

The concern, of course, is tracking the electric vehicles & plug-in hybrids. What about those people feeding their EVs with solar panels? And, while at the moment they can quietly slip through the cracks while we encourage economy, that won't be practical forever.

Why should EV vehicles pay taxes twice? Taxes for electricity are already paid by those pluggin them in.

I am sure that this will be taken into account and the amount of taxes paid for Electricity used in lieu of fuel will be credited. There are other fuel tax programs like this...and the US wants to encourage EV purchase and use. So there may be a reduced road tax rate. After all...most are pretty light and so easy on road surfaces.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:
I am sure that this will be taken into account and the amount of taxes paid for Electricity used in lieu of fuel will be credited. There are other fuel tax programs like this...and the US wants to encourage EV purchase and use. So there may be a reduced road tax rate. After all...most are pretty light and so easy on road surfaces.

Uuum, yeah sure. When was the last time the US government rolled back a tax on the working man? Don't hold your breath Dana. Just like a national sales tax will be bolted onto the current tax scheme - no reduction of anything. Welcome to the control grid.

quote:

? Don't hold your breath Dana. Just like a national sales tax will be bolted onto the current tax scheme - no reduction of anything.

I don't tend to "hold my breath" waiting for anything.
But I also don't tend to get all kerfluffled about something that may not or is likely not to happen.

The current road tax exemptions are structured in such a way that if you use fuel "off road" upon which road tax has been paid the tax is refunded. This is at BOTH the state and federal levels.

For example:
I have several aircraft which I have built myself over the years.
Since aviation fuel is so expensive I used engines that can burn premium unleaded instead of 100LL.
At the end of each year I am able to file two forms which credit my income tax for the road tax paid on fuel I used in those aircraft.

Those aircraft do not use the highways at all...and the tax code provides for that fact.
I expect that any change to that tax code will reflect that the wear and tear on roads is different for heavy vehicles and light vehicles. Since the trend is to switch taxes to be more like "user fees" I expect that heavier vehicles will be taxed more per mile and lighter ones less. But I also expect that in order to stimulate investment in EVs the road tax may be even lower per mile. It is also possible that there will be NO road tax on EVs for an initial period since as someone pointed out earlier tax is already paid on when electricity is purchased to charge them.

The trend is to higher MPG again.
Consequently some vehicles will not be paying as much per mile of road use as similar but less fuel efficient vehicles. I suspect the "per mile" taxation scheme is to even the playing field for those with lower incomes who own older less fuel efficient vehicles for a decade or so while those vehicles wear out and are taken off the roads.

I can see enough advantages personally to a per mile road tax that I am actually in favor of the change.

The issue is the over taxation of the populace, nothing else.

quote:

Originally posted by mankypro:
The issue is the over taxation of the populace, nothing else.

...and how do you suggest governments get the operating revenues to provide all those benefits you enjoy? Hold bake sales? If you don't like paying taxes there are places in Africa where you can live tax free.

With a handle like John Galt, clearly your question is meant as a joke right?

quote:

Originally posted by mankypro:
Road taxes are routinely misused by state and local governments, if the revenue from fuel taxes was actually used to maintain our roads we'd have much better roads. Just another way to squeeze more money from us and move us into the tyranny of neomercantilism even faster.

There is supposed to be a law in Oregon directing Road Taxes to be used for roads (and probably administration of the program). I believe that it has been extended to cover some state park maintenance. It just makes sense... tax the roads for the roads.

However,
I was also looking at the GPS Tax stuff.
This will certainly fall under the "no new taxes without a statewide referendum".
And, even if it did manage to slip through the state legislature, it could be quashed with a single initiative petition (after the state invests a billion dollars in the implementation of it).

You can bet, if it was ever implemented, that the Police Department and the Judicial Branch would be begging to get their fingers on the system.

A father has a flat tire and is late bringing a child back after custody... ping the car and see where it is. ping the cell phone and see where it is... then swoop in for the arrest.

A new level of speed enforcement. You hit the gas to pass someone on a 2-lane road... ticket arrives in the mail the next day!!!!!!! Miss that school sign during recess... ticket. Get kind of bored driving through the desert... nothing but sage brush for miles, hit the gas... ticket.

And, what will happen to the system the first time a stalker figures out how to hack into it and someone gets raped or murdered?

And, the tourists? Those living on the state borders? Double Taxation for mileage done in another state?

Anyway, I see this as a pie in the sky thing that someone dreamed up, and will convince the government to put in a few hundred million in R&D, but I can not imagine the people truly rallying behind it. And, thus, the program will fall flat on it's face.

quote:

I see this as a pie in the sky thing that someone dreamed up, and will convince the government to put in a few hundred million in R&D, but I can not imagine the people truly rallying behind it. And, thus, the program will fall flat on it's face.

Yup, you nailed it. The current system is simpler, easier, more cost effective and it works.

Motor fuel taxes should be used for things like infrastructure improvements and improving public transit. However corrupt governments with serious budget shortfalls are easily manipulated by those in power.

People get the governments they deserve: the very best that greed, corruption, and bribery can by.

The thing with taxes is they need to be cheap to collect, if a government has to spend a dollar to collect a dollar in tax it is obviously a crappy tax. Checking how many miles someone does in a year seems a pretty expensive exercise. It would be much cheaper to tax the fuel as it leaves the refinery or tanker. That seems to be the method most countries use.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
Yup, you nailed it. The current system is simpler, easier, more cost effective and it works.

Perhaps that is the ISSUE here.

In Oregon, raising a "simple tax" requires a vote by the people.

For example, raising the fuel tax from 24 cents/gallon to 30 cents/gallon would require a vote by the people by general election.

However, create a law that generates independent tax rates for every single vehicle on the market, and they no longer have voter control. Come up with a new car... and suddenly a new tax.

What about hot rods? Engine swaps?

And.. read what they are saying about the taxes... and wonder what they really have in mind:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY...PP/mileage_faq.shtml

quote:

1. the gas tax has not kept pace with inflation;
2. voters have opposed increases in the gas tax; and
3. the fuel efficiency of new vehicles, especially hybrids and alternative-fuel vehicles, continues to increase, resulting in less gas tax paid.
[...]
Wouldn’t a mileage fee penalize people who drive fuel-efficient vehicles?
No. In fact, the mileage fee can be designed to reward and encourage the use of fuel-efficient vehicles.

Ok, so the reason for implementing it is to force those driving hybrids and fuel efficient vehicles to pay more taxes... except they state that it won't harm the hybrid owners.

Now, look at the rates:

http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/278

quote:

The political problem is that the environmentally virtuous vehicles pay a lot more in the VMT-toll than in taxes - The Toyota Corolla $12.39 [gas&toll] vs $11.03 [gas&fuel taxes] and the hybrid Prius $9.69 vs $7.81. At the same time the Lincoln Navigator SUVpays only $27.36 tolls vs $28.85 taxes, and the Lamborghini gas guzzler (11mpg) $31.76 tolls vs $34.09 taxes.[...]250 miles buying gasoline at $1.50/gal of which the OR tax is 24c compared with a VMT fee of 1.25c/mi.

Yep, that was an old website link (note the gas prices they used)
But...

It sounds to me like a bunch of political doubletalk.