well my Facet from CarQuest start leaking around the seams in the case and i was getting air in my lines. only had it for about 1 month.

I really didn't want to say anything, but since you asked, yes, there are some new lift pumps out here.

Last month I went down to an industrial controls company and looked at a Suntec gear pump (for furnace oil). I never bought it because as Tim Cook said earlier in this thread, the Suntecs look like Frankenpumps. 5 lb chunk of steel and that's only the head.

I was afraid that the size of motor required to spin that beast would be huge. Suntec rep told me that the J series uses about 1/14 HP. It sounds small, but it isn't. I didn't want a dead battery.



I've been sitting on a little 2 amp gear pump for about a year now because although it lacks a bypass valve, it just seems to good to be true. It can handle 70 deg C. It moves 1/2 gallon per minute. I wanted to sell them, but they look so cute, I'm not sure anyone would take them seriously. I think I paid about $60.00 .



I'm talking to a factory about another new pump and will know more next week.

If anyones curious about any of this, just PM me.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: welder,

Walbro has a new line of pumps to replace the 6000 series called the FR series . I don't know if they are more suitable for WVO than the previous models some people used . Model FRB-5 is probably the one to use for a WVO lift pump (replaces 6065). See- http://www.autoperformanceengineerin.../fr_pumps.html

http://www.vegpower.com/order/prodpage.cfm?cat_selected...ected=321&startrow=1

Welder, any idea on service life or seal compatability. If run in open loop or even with an external pressure reg. it should be ok. who makes them, were do we get them?

I haven't tested the little one yet. Still need to convert my F-250.

I've got a line on another nice little gear pump. It has a better motor than the other little one. Will know more next week.

Welder -- Suntec pump -- Not sure just what suntec pump you might have been looking at, the basic "A" model pump is only about the size of a baseball ? You referanced a "J" series pump, these are about the size of a softball, I don't recommend the "J" pump as they use a different wierd gear profile that is much more susceptible to jamb-ups than the "A" series triangular gear profile. Don't bother with the more expensive "B" series pump, these are 2-stage pumps but the second stage only circulates the oil internally or back to the supply tank, the reason for the second stage is only to increase the SUCTION on the pump intake so they can lift oil more reliably from an underground tank.

I am just now putting together one of these modified "A" pumps to use on my truck. The entire unit, including the electric scooter motor and mounting, will fit in about an 9 inch space. It will take up about the same space as would two Mallory or carter or Holly blue type pumps.

Motor power -- The electric motors powering the furnace oil burners are rated at 1/6 HP, these turn both the oil pump and the squirl cage fan. Measuring the power used by the scooter motor on my FE pump I find the 1/6 HP to be about correct for the 150 pounds pressure needed for the FE, this equates to worst case about 10 amps at 12 volts(once you hit the preset pressure the power needed does not go up no matter the motor speed or flow rate).

For a vehicle fuel system the pressure will not need to be nearly that high, making pressure is what takes power, running the pump at the 7 pounds pressure needed in my setup only draws about 5 amps, this is equil to, or less than, most other electric fuel pumps. Testing a new model Facet pulse-type pump I find they draw 4 1/2 amps during the actual piston withdrawel power pulse, they will indicate a bit over 2 amps if using a hand held meter but this is the average current rather than there peak current. Mallory gearrotor or holly blue vane pumps will draw upwards of 15-30 amps depending on the model. The 24 volt electric sidewalk scooter motor is so overbuilt for this application it will NEVER die, it does not even get hot. these are ball bearing motors and designed for very servere use, hard to beat for the 25-30 dollar price. They are a bit bigger than the motors used on the Mallory pumps but draw less amps due to there larger diameter making more torque for the same amps, and by seperating the motor from the hot pump by a shaft coupler they don't feel the added heat from the hot veg.

I have done a good bit more testing of the Suntec pumps on veg, I have been using one to successfully supply hot oil to my flash evaporator for over a year. You do need to do a bit of internal modificatio0n to get these pumps to flow the thicker oil efficiently, I now remove the entire top cover/diaphragm flow valve layer of the internal pump stack, plug 2 holes by tapping them, and screwing in a couple of set screws, drill a 1/4 inch hole through what is now the top layer of the pump stack, this hole is placed directly over the suction side of the gears so there is almost no restriction to getting the oil into the gears. I also ordered replacement internal strainers that are designed for pumping used engine oil, these have 25 thousandths openings in the screen, the gears have about 70 thousandths openings between the gear teeth so the strainers stop anything big enough to clog the gears but still allow the thick veg to get through to the pump. The sharp points of the triangular gear tooth profile also tends to cut through anything that happens to hit them rather than causing them to jamb up.

You want to take the oil out of what is shown as the "guage" port, put a pipe plug in the normal fuel nozzle feed outlet.

I finally got a 1750 RPM "A" model pump, the gears are a bit over half again the size of the 3400 RPM pumps (same diameter but wider), everything else is the same, this should allow at least a 25-30 gallon/hr flow rate from the smaller "A" style pump turning it at 2-3 thousand RPM, for my use this larger flow rate will allow the scooter motor to only need to turn a few hundred rpm to supply the max of worst-case 16 G/H used by my Dodge Cummins in a non-looped, return it all to the tank, fuel setup.

I am mounting a simple aluminum heating block in contact with the outer surface of the stock aluminum pump cover, this will have both hot water flowing through it as well as one or two glow plugs.

I will elaborate in detail on this pump setup shortly in a seperate discussion.

Hi Tim.

Are the mods you mentioned necessary if the oil is already heat thinned?

You mentioned that you have modified the pumps to handle the thicker veggie and you use it on your FE. I assume that on the FE application the veggie is run through the pump cold, right? Is that why it's thicker?

I assumed it was pumped cold because I'm not sure if there's any net gain in efficiency to heating a full drum of oil since it will be run through a hot FE heating element anyway.

Do you heat the veg twice in your FE setup, or is the Suntec pumping cold veggie?

If you are running cold veggie through the Suntec for your FE, perhaps there is no need to do the flow resistance reduction mods on an on board svo lift pump because the veggie will be hot anyway.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tim c cook:
for my use this larger flow rate will allow the scooter motor to only need to turn a few hundred rpm to supply the max of worst-case 16 G/H used by my Dodge Cummins in a non-looped, return it all to the tank, fuel setup.QUOTE]

Tim,
Are you saying your Cummins only needs 16 GPH(gallon per hour) with a return to tank?

http://www.activoil.de/filter.html

See the 'Zahnradpumpe', rated for veggie and lubricating oils. presumably cold.

"Gear pump, 12 V vegetable oil and lubricating oil-steady execution. - Spraying protection for elektroanschluss - 4 rubber buffers for vibration-poor attachment 1 clamping ring connector for Pa hose with 8mm AD of 2 hose connectors 14 mm Material of gear wheels: Bronze Length: 140 mm Width: 100 mm Height: 80 mm Diameter of the pump body: 60 mm Baseplate: 60 x 100 mm Connections: 3/8 tariff internal thread Mechanical handling capacity: 60 L/h with 8 mm hose ID suction-side 330 L/h with 14 mm hose ID suction-side suitable safety device: 8 ampere Enclosure: IP 55

"

Tim - What sort of regulator do you plan to use with that pump setup ? - Thanks

I have not heard anyone mention duty cycles or if the motors are ac or dc. 95%+ of DC motors will have a 15 or 30 minute duty cycle so bear that in mind.

We build a 1/3 hp unit that is in use by trucking company's running on Veg Oil. Here is the link. http://www.dixonpumps.com/1101.shtml More expensive than what you are used to but it works with colder oil.

Hi Doug. 1/3 HP is a pretty big DC current draw for most smaller diesel vehicles to bear. Whe big rigs may handle it with no problem, buy I wouldn't try sticking that big 1/3 hp DC motor in a jetta.


By the way, the motors on the lift pumps I've been looking at are constant duty brushless.

welder -- The FE pump is being fed 100-120 deg f oil from the settling/filtering barrel. I circulate the oil through several filters for at least 72 hours, there are heaters in the barrel to keep the high meltpoint stuff from clogging the filters. I now run the FE at a lower temp, around 225 deg f, during this same filtering time. The lower temp keeps the oil from polimerizing and clogging the FE oriface, this is a major maintenance problem when running the FE at 350 deg f. Because of the lower FE temp the oil needs to be passed through the FE more than once, by doing both the filtering and dewatering at the same time I get the oil passed through the filters over 30 times and the oil passed through the FE at least 5 times. Once the system has run for a few hours the barrel heaters hardly turn on as the FE heater does the bulk of the heating so the setup is not actually running both heater setups at the same time.

Pump mods -- may not absolutaly need all of the mods for hot oil but to use the "A" model suntec pump with a veriable speed motor you will have to at least remove the internal diaphragm flow valve assembly as if you leave this in-tact the pump won't output any oil at all until it is up to the rated RPM, sometimes not even then as the diaphragm bypass valve setup is balanced to work with the thickness of ambient temp fuel oil.

This links to more detailed info on my earlier-but-workable mods to Suntec pumps, starts about 1/3 down the page.

I used two "J" model Suntec pumps as metering feed pumps for two different drip oil burners over this last winter. These pumps are mounted below the veg oil tank so they are flooded by gravity with ambiant temp oil. The supply tanks are next to the stoves so the oil gets quite warm over time, I still had problems with the pumps clogging with tiny globs of fats. Both the "A" and "J" model pumps have very small rectangular oil openings into the gears, this opening is about 3/16 tall and 1/16 wide and about 3/8 inches long. This opening is in the side of the pump body that is almost directly covered by the internal strainer, all these things add up to easy clogging when the pump is turning slowly as it is not turning fast enough to make suction. Since the pump has to be opened up to remove the diaphragm valve it is simple enough to make the flow improvments and these changes should eliminate any clogging problems.

Some newer vehicles (Fords) bypass a HUGE amount of fuel back to the tank so the lift pump may need to be able to flow a LOT of fuel, upwards of 50-60 G/H. These pumps won't flow that much in there stock configuration. They also only have 1/8 inch diameter internal high-pressure oil passages, I will be drilling these out as big as possible to increase the flow even more than the current 25-30 G/h just to see if it will help increase the flow rate.

Thich fuel -- Even oil at the normal temps available in a heated system (100-130 deg f at the tank) is thicker than diesel, it also is much stickier. Larger diameter fuel lines are always a help when flowing veg, same should hold for a pump.

roverhybrids -- Dodge Cummins flow rate -- Yes, this is an older 1992 dodge, the fuel flow back to the tank is about 2.5 times the fuel that the engine uses. The worst case fuel used under load at 65 MPH is a bit under 4 G/H (15 MPG) so the total fuel flowing from the tank is about 14 G/H. This was deturmined when I clogged the tank filter and had to stop at a grocery store and buy a 2.5 gallon plastic water bottle, cut the fuel line and use the plastic bottle as a small under-hood fuel tank, I had to fill the 2.5 gallon jug every 8-9 miles of travel, engine used a bit over 1/2 gallon, the other 1 1/2 - 2 gallons were being bypassed back to the tank.

rkpott -- The Suntec pump has a true adjustable bypass pressure regulator built into it. You have to select a specific strength spring for a specific range but the regulator is screw-adjustable within the selected range. The suntec manual (suntecpumps.com) shows springs from 5 pounds up to 200 pound pressure ranges, hardware store springs will need to be tested to deturmine there pressure ranges, simple enough to test.

Pump Builder -- duty cycle -- The 24 volt 1/3 HP (1/3 HP on 24 volts, at least 1/6 HP and approx 800 rpm on 12 volts) DC scooter motors (this style) are 100% duty cycle even when powered with 24 volts DC, on 12 volts they don't even get warm even when making 150 pounds pressure, they are also ball bearinged and well made.

I have run the FE pump powered with a 12 volt DC automotive fan motor but these get very hot and will seize up within hours if operated continuously. The fan motors use brass bushings rather than ball bearings so the bushings need a drop of oil now and then but they will still seize when hot.

Dayton and Leeson among others make continuous duty DC motors, but they are industrial type motors and aren't cheap.
Aeromotive and others make under the hood bypass style pressure regulators with returns. The reason I mention this is when I had my suburban I used one and monitored the temp of the return line so I could turn my veggy pump on as soon as I started the car, monitor the temp and know when to switch over. The only problem is it does ad another component, cost, and point of potential failure. I've got some spring loaded check valves I may try next time.
Leeson motors here http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/m111014.htm
Dayton here http://www.electricmotorwarehouse.com/Dayton/1Z835.htm

Tim. Excellent info! Very practical tinkering skills. You should run your own shop!

The local Suntec rep never even mentioned that the Suntecs have integral bypass valves already in place. This is good to know. It should prevent me from having to add another check valve without reason to.

I've heard that with regulators and check valves, it's sometimes worthwhile insurance to have a second check valve as a redundant safety feature to really prevent the IP intake from being hit with over pressure fuel. If the first valve ever fails, at least the second valve would prevent a bad scene. There's no sense for me to add two check valves if the Suntec already has an internal bypass. One extra check valve plumbed in after the Suntec should suffice.

How many watts do you think the scooter motors actually draw when pumping fuel on board?



Hi Dave.

When you had your Suburban, since you would monitor the return line temps, why would you want to turn your veggie on as soon as you started the engine? Wouldn't it be better to turn the veggie pump on just before switching over?

Welder,
My thought was that I could get the fluid circulating and temps stable as quick as possible. My gearotor pump was internally regulated at something like 20 psi. Thinking back now I'm not sure I did this in the winter. I'm thinking now you might not want to start trying to push WVO to soon which may damage the filter.
I'd like to play with a TEEL gear pump and a Dayton 12VDC motor if I ever need a lift pump again.

Hi Dave.

I kinda thought that circulating the veggie was meant to even out the overall fuel temp but I wasn't sure.

That's a good observation that starting up a veg pump too soon might burst a filter full of cold veg. I've never thought of that before but I guess if a guy were using a strong enough pump and had the check valve installed after the filter, then the thick cold oil might blow out a seam or something. Someone might think it would be foolish to install a check valve after the filter, but that's actually what I had planned to do in order to make use of the higher pressure to guarantee flow through the filter. I may still do this, but I'll just use high pressure, high temp, small pore hydraulic filters that can take the PSI without bursting. Waiting for the filter to get hot will certainly help too.

How long did you have your Suburban running on veg before you sold it?



Hopefully, I'll soon have an affordable, reliable little gear pump to offer people. The only thing I don't like about these little guys is that they have no integral bypass valve, so a regulator or a check valve must be added seperately. Adding an extra check valve might be a good idea for most pumps anyway since an integral bypass valve may fail and overpressurise the IP intake. Components occassionally fail right from the factory so having a back up valve wouldn't hurt.

I'm just waiting on a pump curve from the factory and a basic unit price so I will know how cheap I can sell these things for. I'm not 100% sure that the pump curve will serve our common purposes because nobody has ever used these pumps for svo, but they are awesome little pumps so hopefully, they will work fine.

Welder,
I forget now, but I think it was only about 5K on veggy. Got tired of trying to fix the front end and wanted to get back to something that was simple with no check engine light so I got a 82 benz and a 89 Blue Bird bus.

Good luck with your pump. I'm going to try and build my own filter cartridge setup with a coiled coolant heater right around the filter like greasekings setup.

Hi Dave. When you say 5 k, you mean 5,000 miles right?

Welder,

I would not use that pump on a Jetta also but not for that reason. Its just too big. The amp draw is very doable however. The second biggest selling pump we make is our Model 1583-12. http://www.dixonpumps.com/1583.shtml
It is a 1.5 HP 12 volt that a regular 1/2 ton pickup truck can power with the truck at idle.

As far as bypasses go I have been told you never want two of them. They will end up in a constant bypass with little or no flow.

Tim,

Wow. Lots of great information there. Thank you so much. Off subject but I am wondering if you may know of a really small diesel engine in the 1-3 HP range that could work in this companies application, www.bikemotor.com That is my brothers company and we are trying to find a diesel option.