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Things you can do to get maximum engine life from a VO converted diesel.
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joeblack5,

Interesting that you modified your injector position. Not many people do this.

Elsbett, the German veg oil engine company, modify injector position with their conversions for rotary pumped VW tdis (thinner sealing washer and injector slightly machined to allow for a good seal)

VWP, another leading German development company have a patent for this technique for reducing deposits (not quite sure how defensible this patent would be?) as it places the nozzle in a higher temp area of the combustion chamber-
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=DE...=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

Also the ACREVO report suggests it reduces HC and slightly increases NOx, which to me suggests its increasing the burn temp of the fuel-
http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm

Also discussion, some of which is a bit related to Elsbett injector position at http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=213525&page=7

Best

Darren




www.obed.org.uk Open Biofuel Engine Development - Collaborative biofuel engine tuning.
 
Location: UK | Registered: March 25, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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VegB.

Wow thanks for that info, Great img in that thread.

My reason for lowering the injector( using thinner washer) was that I noticed three areas of more cooking on the top of piston corresponding with the position of the 3 injector holes.
I imagined that the injection spray was partly above the piston and partly in the bowl.
Deposits inside the bowl , I do not know what would happen with that, but deposits on top of the piston would hit the bottom of the head and cause direct damage and noise.
I would like to replace this three hole nozzle with a 5 or 6 hole unit that are slightly more directed inside the bowl.

On this engine there is a cam on the intake valve to give more whirl to intake air.

Funny enough the valves are not rotating for what I thought would be required to keep the valve seats clean and for even wear.

There seemed also to be more coking directly above the coolant inlet.
I think that because of the low heat output per volume of these engines the required coolant flow is that low that the main amount of coolant flows from the inlet to the above outlet and not whirl around to get a more even cooling.
I 'corrected" that by inserting a silicone hose in the lower ( inlet) hole that that gives the coolant a whirl around the jacket and hopefully results in a more even cylinder temperature.

Any insights?

Thks
Later


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Joe,

I'd agree that injector design is probably not ideal. Injectors are designed to go with the fuel pump and combustion chamber shape but if there is anything different available for your engine that will achieve better atomisation (more, smaller holes) and fire the fuel charge deeper into the bowl then I'd go for it.

Increasing the injector opening pressure will also result in higher injection pressures and counter the longer spray penetration you get when using thicker fuels. It will put more stress on the injection pump, give an effective injection timing retardation (which should be countered by modifying pump timing) and, I imagine, will take a fair bit of trial and error getting it set up right.

some stuff at the research pages at http://obed.org.uk/ should be of interest.


With regard to valve stem coking VWP have another patent for modifying the stem seals -

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?KC=A1...ale=en_EP&CC=DE&FT=D

For cold staring heating up the inlet air should provide significant improvements. I'd be interested to see the difference.

I'm guessing some combination of hot air, higher injection pressures and having the engine pre warmed might get deposits to an acceptable level in that engine.

Best

Darren




www.obed.org.uk Open Biofuel Engine Development - Collaborative biofuel engine tuning.
 
Location: UK | Registered: March 25, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anybody, especially Dana, have you used ceramic coating additives like this one at http://www.cermetlab.com ?

It sounds like a good idea - effectively relining the piston walls and the rings too I guess - and there is at least one large fleet using it (Sysco).

Whatcha think?


Paul

1983 Mercedes 240D Single tank WVO - FPHE, Injector Line heaters, aux fuel pump. Water/Methanol Injection. Frantz bypass oil filter. - North Florida
 
Location: Fernandina Beach, Florida | Registered: March 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Drayton:
Anybody, especially Dana, have you used ceramic coating additives like this one at http://www.cermetlab.com ?

It sounds like a good idea - effectively relining the piston walls and the rings too I guess - and there is at least one large fleet using it (Sysco).

Whatcha think?


I am very skeptical of the claims made for this product.

And the fact that the "proof" from an "independent university test" does not identify the university other than "polytechnic university" or link to the test results themselves is what make me believe that this is a scam most.

Frankly I don't see how it would prolong engine life unless it was used in an engine very early in its life. It is not going to repair serious cylinder wall scoring nor rebuild worn out rings.

It may improve the lubricity of oil....but there are dozens of additives that do that. Nothing new or revolutionary there.

However in trying to check up on claim of "independent testing" of this product by "Claude Travis & Associates" I discovered a product also tested by the same "independent lab" which claims to reduce blowby by removeing carbon deposits around piston rings at: http://www.prurgent.com/2008-06-05/pressrelease12751.htm

This fuel additive "Dipeptane" would appear to be a much more useful product for VO fuel users.
http://www.dipetanenortheast.com/

I am checking into this now.

Reporting back...
Press release made by Mr. Travis claims that dipeptane reduces carbon on rings

quote:
Mr. Travis noted that Dipetane’s test results are important to fleet managers for several reasons and show marked differences from other additives tested to date.

“The reduction in blow-by was especially dramatic, demonstrating that Dipetane reduces carbon deposits, especially on the rings. We tested Dipetane on three trucks, whereas most companies only tested on one,” he added.

...website claims only that it reduced combustion chamber coke deposits.
(Not a good sign when the "independent tester is more enthusiastic then the seller of the product)

Also not as good sign that the independent testing lab of Claude Travis & Associates is located in a home on a lake.

More investigation shows that Claude Travis & Associates the "independent testing lab" claimed to be one of the top three SAE testing labs in the US (in press releases for these products) has no record of being any such thing. In fact the only info I can find on Claude Travis & Associates all assocated with products sold by these folks. Including an on board hydrogen generator http://dieselhydrogeninjection.com/.

Going to have to consider all of these products snake oil unless something to show that this "independent testing lab" is legitimate.

Legitimate products don't use fake labs with fake credentials when trying to prove they work as advertised.

There are several discussion on this at http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=5 including ones wth the marketers. None of it appears to me that the claims are legitimate.

Bummer...I really hoped that dipeptane would be.
 
Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: November 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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They sure don't give it (CerMet) away, 15 dollars per ml, and one ml per quart of engine oil. It would be interesting to know if it would prevent coking by not giving the carbon a place to stick.

Sam


2002 F250 Vegistroke now with the new V3 module!
 
Location: Wyoming | Registered: July 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Dana, they had a picture of a repaired piston head that had visible improvement. Whether it is true or not is the question.

I emailed a request for the link to the university test. We'll see how they respond.

Paul


Paul

1983 Mercedes 240D Single tank WVO - FPHE, Injector Line heaters, aux fuel pump. Water/Methanol Injection. Frantz bypass oil filter. - North Florida
 
Location: Fernandina Beach, Florida | Registered: March 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Cool Hello all. I just spent the last several hours reading this thread. I'd like to summarize what I think were the take aways of this and a few others. This is primarily targeted toward Dana, but I appreciate answers from any others too.

Before I start, I'll give a brief overview of my background. I joined this forum about 1.5 years ago shortly after I bought a 1981 Mercedes 300sd for the purpose of converting to WVO. I was somewhat active on the forums for a while, but the car developed mechanical problems and I ran out of money and I faded away for a while. Recent increases in gas prices have reignited my interest in the topic.

I have a degree in Electronics Engineering Technology from 22 years ago. I am not an auto mechanic, and don't want to be. I'd rather hire one. However, in defense of mechanical skills, I worked on fight simulators for both General Electric and Delta Air Lines. This included electrical, mechanical, electronic, and computer systems. I even worked on the hydraulics, which I hated. So, I can turn a wrench if I have to. I'd just rather be driving the car than be under the hood. I can also use diagnostic equipment if needed. I have a good basic set of tools, sockets, and such, but very little which is specific to cars.

I want to convert the car to a two tank system, in the most practical way. If I can afford it, I'd rather buy and hire than build and install. Money is an issue, though, and I can do things myself if needed and the payback is worth the pain and if I'm capable with my skill set of doing a competent job. I don't have a fleet, nor a fleet budget for maintenance. I want to make the engine last as long as possible within these tradeoffs. The local mechanic (MB specialist, but not a dealer) I trust with my MB baby charges $110 / hour, so I want to use him minimally, but I know he'll do things right. He's great with the engine. He doesn't like the idea of alternate fuels and said he won't help with that, so for plumbing things, I may have to use someone else.

The following are the take away ideas I got from this thread, and a few others, and some I'd remembered. Please confirm, change, elaborate as necessary. If something has been posted elsewhere, please point me to them rather than flaming me. I've read the stickys on this forum briefly.

00.5) Perform minimal (please list?) pre conversion mechanical tests and adjustments on car. It runs great on diesel. Smokes average for that time period and type of vehicle.

01) Obtain the oil and settle, wash, heat, filter, centrifuge, etc. to obtain 5 micron particle limits and .05% water with pan test. Use non hydrogenated? oil with low gel point. Add a bacteria prevention product?

(Relevent links to other resources are welcome.)

02) Convert the car with a 2 tank system and provide return lines to both tanks and 6 port? valves and controller to prevent cross contamination of tanks.

03) Do? or Don't? use an aluminum tank. Use heated pickup in veg oil tank to minimize possibility of polymerization. Use fuel line heater? Use fuel filter heater? Aim for 160 deg F temperature at fuel valves prior to switch from petroleum.

(There were some references to higher temperatures, which tend to scare me.)

04) Purge with petroleum fuel before shutdown.

(How do I know how long?)

05) Do the jar test for fuel polymerization at every oil change?

06) Change the oil twice as frequently as stated in the manual?

07) Add water injection to reduce coking and deposits in the engine?
- Links / References?
- How much, how often?
- Will it hurt the turbo?

Am I missing any major points? Elaborations, corrections?

How do I test for cross contamination in the fuel tanks? What do I do in cold weather? What are the major gotchas? The information to digest is quite extensive, and initially overwhelming. I've already got this car, and understand they work well for the purpose. For future reference, I understand that indirect injection and preferably non computer controlled engines work best. I was surprised to learn that computer controls came in during the mid 80's. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Ron
 
Location: Cumming, GA (Atlanta) | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
How do I test for cross contamination in the fuel tanks? What do I do in cold weather? What are the major gotchas? The information to digest is quite extensive, and initially overwhelming. I've already got this car, and understand they work well for the purpose. For future reference, I understand that indirect injection and preferably non computer controlled engines work best. I was surprised to learn that computer controls came in during the mid 80's. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Ron


Ron...several of your above questions are of a general nature and not related to this discussion. The topic this discussion is based on is of such major importance to the VO community and especially "newbies" that it was stuck to the top of the pile of ALL general discussions. When discussions trend off topic they also tend to get very long and these two factors tend to mak it harder for those who most need the information to find it easily.

The information you want is probably already available somewhere in the long list of discussion on this forum. But as you already know it is very hard to find much of it since thereARE so many topics an so many of them trend far off topic. However, An indexed wwealth of VO info is availabel at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics

The search function there tends to return a bit more specific results than the one on this forum.

If you have a question for a subject you cannot find in that indexed depository of VO info you can post it at: [URL=http://www.websitetoolbox.com/mb/voconversionbasics?forum=54599 ]http://www.websitetoolbox.com/mb/voconversionbasics?forum=54599 [/URL]

and you should receive a reply shortly that either directs you to the section/link that holds the info you are looking for or a new one will be created in which to provide it.

My intention is not to rebuke you for asking questions not completely on topic but rather to help you find the answers you seek without unintentionlly making it harder for others like yourself to find answers later.

BTW...the section specifically devoted to MB conversions is at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/mb/voconversionbasics?forum=55564
 
Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: November 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Cool Dana,

Thanks for the links and advice. Someone PM'd me and suggested I start a new general thread with these questions. I think I'll do that.

Sincerely,

Ron
 
Location: Cumming, GA (Atlanta) | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello everyone,

Really appreciate the comments written above. In addition to avoiding cold start-ups and frequent engine oil removals, I also believe that performing periodic carbon cleaning would also provide some degree of help for removing coke deposits.
 
Registered: October 04, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I was told never to convert a TDI engine over to WVO because of the injectors. something to do with backwash I guess
 
Location: los angeles | Registered: February 18, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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TDI can be ok up to 2006.


Edward Beggs
PlantDrive(tm) International
plantdrive.ca@gmail.com
http://www.PlantDrive.ca
SVO Consultations; Component/Kit Supplier; SVO Conversions; since 1999.
 
Location: Salmon Arm, BC, Canada | Registered: November 23, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by darude:
I was told never to convert a TDI engine over to WVO because of the injectors. something to do with backwash I guess


A large part of the concern with TDI engines is the EGR; partially burned VO sticks really well to the intake and valves.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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2 strokes and other older, slower engines are happier on WVO~

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a199910.pdf
 
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada | Registered: September 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I put around 40,000 km on a Detroit 6V71 of unknown vintage/mileage (ex greyhound and public transit service)
I didn't baby this thing: didn't always purge the lines before shutdown, didn't always let engine warm up before switching if I did purge etcetera.
Engine started burning lube oil (blue smoke) & as I had a spare unit ready to go I swapped engines and dismantled the blue burner- at heavy duty mechanic class.
Journeyman instructor was amazed at the complete lack of coking.
Rings were ok and I think the oil was from blower seals.
Suspect 2 Stroke engines run hotter- and they are not high speed.
Read somewhere long ago that veggie oil just can't burn fast enough in high speed applications, leading to coking.
 
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada | Registered: September 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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