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Things you can do to get maximum engine life from a VO converted diesel.
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Hello Dana,

I hope you can "forgive " me starting and stopping on WVO. I have to add that the coolant was preheated to 150 F before the engine was started ( it is linked into the house heating system)

The generator set was run in 10 Hours intervals, so 3 or 4 starts only between teardown.

Originally I thought ( hoped ) that a such a slow turning machine would be more forgiving for ABUSE. It seems not so.

Is your experience that 300 F works better then 210F? Do you feel that 300 F is only useful in DI engines?

I realize that these deposits are not so interesting since they might have been caused because of cold starting only. nevertheless I like to ask seeing these deposits do you think advancing the timing would be helpfull?


Thanks

Later


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by joeblack5:

I use full throttle water injection as DCS (thanks DCS) has described it and the car has gotten noticeable more responsive.
After 5000 miles I heard some pinging and pulled the injectors and noticed 1/64" thick hard deposits that had to be scraped away. The center hole was clogged and spray pattern was not good.


Joe,
Was this 5000 miles you speak of and then found the deposits on the injectors with the water injection fitted, before it or during the time you ran it? ( Partly before, partly after?)
 
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quote:
Hello Dana,

I hope you can "forgive " me starting and stopping on WVO.


LOL...yes...I "forgive" you Joe.
It is your choice and you are doing far more than most do in monitoring whether or not there is acellerrated coking of the engine you are experimenting with.
 
Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: November 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Joe, thanks for the interesting lister pics. I would like to get one of those myself, my neighbor has one and its low speed chug sound is cool. The deposits you are getting might be less if you get the engine hotter. How much load is on it?

You say its plumbed into the house, you may be taking too much heat from the coolant. Adding a thermostat to keep the coolant in the engine hotter ~200F may help.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Drayton:
I wouldn't run a Merc W123 without at least a heat exchanger.

It's not just the cylinders you have to worry about, it's the injection pump too. If it is getting cold oil, I don't think it's going to last long. It is a mechanical pump and has very tight tolerances and is not designed to pump thick viscous stuff like vegetable oil.

I've read that oil at 160F is about the same viscosity as diesel, so that is a good figure to aim for entering your IP.


Once a Merc engine is warmed up, I believe it is impossible for the IP to get cold oil even without a HE, although I would still recommend one before the prefilter.

If one looks at the path the fuel takes, it first enters the lift pump which is solidly bolted to the Block and I believe would also get a good supply of oil splashed on the inside. When Doing some temp checks, I found the oil was leaving the lift pump hotter than what my small HE before the filter was warming it to. As I couldn't hold my hand on the Pump and the hose seemed just as hot, I would say the oil was exiting the Lift pump at over 50oC.

From there, the fuel then ravels to the OEM filter which after the engine is fully warmed up, can also be felt to be quite hot. The filter is on a housing that bolts to the block and also has the hot return fuel going to it further heating it up. For there the oil goes to the IP.

I couldn't measure the temp of the oil right before it hits the IP but I can say to a certainty that HE or not, Once the engine is fully and properly warmed up. It is IMPOSSIBLE for cold oil to be going into it.
It may not be as hot as a HE right before the IP could get it, but it is certainly hot and thin enough that the IP isn't going to have any trouble with it.

From there, It is my firm belief the IP and injectors determine the final temp the oil is injected into the engine so that part takes care of itself. The IP gets very warm and although I am not aware of the fuel path within the IP, I find it highly likely that the fuel is warmed pretty early on in its passage through the pump.

I don't know if there are any other cars this would apply to but for the mercs I think the basic fuel system would allow safe running on an unconverted vehicle once the engine was run and allowed to be fully warmed up, say 10-20KM.
As I have now seen that the fuel system itself is putting more heat into the oil than my HE, Obviously the fact I have been able to run 45,000KM must have had something to do with the engine itself heating the fuel.

Another thing I have found with the Merc fuel setup is it's ability to pump liquid fats with no problem. I tested this several times last winter and as long as the fat is still reasonably liquid, the pump had no problem pulling it through the standard, unheated fuel lines. After a while the hot return fuel starts warming up the fat in the tank anyway so things just get better as you go along.

This probably wouldn't work in frigid temps but not everyone lives in extreme cold so I guess if you can get away with just wearing a single jumper outside, you can run liquid fats in your merc with unheated fuel lines. Smile
 
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Hi DCS,

No the water injection is on the car for about 1000 miles, I added a second washer tank and used its pump and switch under pedal ( this is a manual and I added a kick don switch of an automatic)
My data does not have a good start point.
I did not check the injectors / compression before I converted the car.
Two tank system, HIH ( SS tube in 5/8 Hose) , three way return valves, heated filter as described by Dana, ( about 160-180F before IP Two pumps and chack valves described of fatty wagons website, Added my own induction heated injector lines. ( 200-220F just before injector)
The car is fast for an 240 MB and starts on first turn. Mileage about 28-32 MPG on veggie or diesel.
Afer the water injection the car did get more responsive. Another 100 miles and I hear some pinging, first only on diesel at medium load then also on wvo at medium load?
Decided to pull the first injector and did pop /spray test. I need to do a compression test and pop for the injectors.
It has been very busy , sorry I am behind with the promised pictures of the injectors.
Later


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Sunwizard,

Load on engine was 3-3.5 KW electric.
Serpentine belt drive seen at utterpower.
Thermostat with bypass, head temp between the valves about 195 F measured with Infra red thermometer.
Injection line heated with resistance wire and temp measure with thermo couple about 220F

I lowered the injector after first tear down with 1/32" to get the spray more inside the piston combustion bowl.

Added some aceton but not a lot of improvement.

Later


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nuke,

Although this is the top thread (since it is a sticky) and it IS tempting to post general (but off topic) questions in the top post please don't. If you need help finding an existing discussion whose topic is what you want to discuss I have put directions on how to do so in the second discussion (directly below this one on the main page). If you need more help than that please just email me or check out the indexed info at: http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/mb/voconversionbasics
There is even aplace to ask questiond there when you don;t know exactly where they shoudl be posted exactly. http://www.websitetoolbox.com/mb/voconversionbasics?forum=54599

Posting off topic in a regular discussion on an unindexed forum is considered bad "nettiquette" and doing so in a "sticky" even more so. After all it makes information even harder for newbies to find easily if they have to wade through a bunch of discussions that end up being discussions on subjects other than what the original topic listed is.
 
Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: November 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Carbon on Mercedes injector.
Unfortunately i do not know how much carbon was on the injector when I got the car, but this is what was there + 5000 miles veggie.

Also here is a badly scratched pintaux from a MB300TD. This is the car I towed from Tallahasse ,FL. to PA. Bought on e-bay. IMO car had improper WVO setup and also poor maintenance. Low / uneven compression. IP does deliver fuel in tube but not through injector. Still does not run, to many projects.
Anyhow this is a pintaux of the talahassee, gray MB wagon with blue interior originally sold to a gentleman in kansas and then to me. See my old posts for pictures. I like to know more about the history of this wagon.
There are heavy scratches in the surface and the cone and pintle seems to be etched in a dull gray color.

DCS, I dd I answer your question?

ImageCarbon_Injector_IMG_1667_1_3_1.JPG (9 Kb, 24 downloads)
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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picture didn't upload completely. Please try again, I want to see if it looks like every injector I ever pulled from my car.. Smile


Paul

1983 Mercedes 240D Single tank WVO - FPHE, Injector Line heaters, aux fuel pump. Water/Methanol Injection. Frantz bypass oil filter. - North Florida
 
Location: Fernandina Beach, Florida | Registered: March 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes , something happened, at least the text is not lost.
Later


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,


ImageCarbon_Injector_IMG_1667_1_3_1.JPG (32 Kb, 25 downloads)
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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here is the pintaux


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,


ImageInjector_pintle_scratch_IMG_1670_2_3_1.JPG (33 Kb, 25 downloads)
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I think it;s called a pintle isn't it? Unless you're from Louisiana maybe? Smile

You're showing the scraches on the sides?

My injectors did that until I got the centrifuge and really dried and filtered the oil well. Now they seem to be lasting longer.

Just ordered 7Diesel nozzles at under $7 each including shipping from UK, so I'm not worried if they burn out before 100K or whatever the spec is.

Thanks for the pics. I wonder what a regular diesel fuel nozzle is supposed to look like. Every nozzle I ever pulled looked like that, except less carbon on the diesel fuel ones.

If it sprays fine, then I don't see a problem, especially on IDI engines like the mercs.


Paul

1983 Mercedes 240D Single tank WVO - FPHE, Injector Line heaters, aux fuel pump. Water/Methanol Injection. Frantz bypass oil filter. - North Florida
 
Location: Fernandina Beach, Florida | Registered: March 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Paul,

I thought that a pintle becomes a pintaux when it has a center hole but please correct me if I am wrong.

What size is the hole and how do you clean it when it is plugged.

The images are merely their to document and illustrate all the words.

Later


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
<DCS>
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Hello Joe,
From your answer I believe you ran the water for around 1000-1100 miles before you pulled the injector or basically not a very long time. Smile

I found an almost immediate improvement on my car after fitting the WI but there were also small but noticeable ongoing improvements for about 6 months. I neither expected the improvement to be as rapid as it initially was nor the ongoing improvement continue as long as it did either.

There was a distinct change in combustion as well. When I first fitted the WI I could run 50% meth in the water with just a hint of occasional nailing at low revs. Now I don't put any more than 40% meth in the water or it will nail badly at any time. Obviously something in the combustion process has changed.

I also note that after a batch on the meth the car seems to run better even when the WI is back to plain water. This leads me to believe that the Meth may also be helping to remove even more buildup from inside the engine.

Hopefully the WI will keep our engines as deposit free as possible in the long term.
 
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<DCS>
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Drayton:
I think it;s called a pintle isn't it? Unle
Just ordered 7Diesel nozzles at under $7 each including shipping from UK, so I'm not worried if they burn out before 100K or whatever the spec is.


Paul,
I take it these were MB injector Tips?
If so, could you give me the details of where you got them from as I would like to order a set for my own car and this seems a great price!
 
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quote:
Originally posted by DCS:
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Drayton:
I think it;s called a pintle isn't it? Unle
Just ordered 7Diesel nozzles at under $7 each including shipping from UK, so I'm not worried if they burn out before 100K or whatever the spec is.


Paul,
I take it these were MB injector Tips?
If so, could you give me the details of where you got them from as I would like to order a set for my own car and this seems a great price!


I'd watch out for cheap injector nozzles. Quality of machining can be very variable. I've even had cheap Bosch nozzles, from a respectable supplier, that were very poor - failed leak down testing despite repeated cleaning, poor performance on leak back test.

Very disappointing and don't feel like its such a good deal when you spend hours on trying to get them set up properly and they have to be returned and you have to wait a few months for the refund (because they had to go to Bosch for assessment before I could be refunded????)

Comparing the machining of the sealing surface between these nozzles and the replacements I got from elsewhere was like night and day - quite clearly the Bosch nozzles were not made with the same care.

As an aside I can get quality nozzles, hopefully at a reasonable price, for any vehicle if anyone is interested.




www.obed.org.uk Open Biofuel Engine Development - Collaborative biofuel engine tuning.
 
Location: UK | Registered: March 25, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by joeblack5:
Hi Paul,

I thought that a pintle becomes a pintaux when it has a center hole but please correct me if I am wrong.

What size is the hole and how do you clean it when it is plugged.

The images are merely their to document and illustrate all the words.

Later


Hello Joe,

Pintaux were nozzles with an extra hole which directs an auxiliary fuel charge at low delivery rates (while starting the engine) towards the hot throat of a swirl chamber indirect injection engine to aid cold starting. Only engine I've come across that uses them is the old Land Rover IDI engine.

The nozzles in the old Mercedes IDI are known as hole type nozzles (see - http://vegburner.co.uk/suitability.htm), also only place I've seen them used. These were superseded with flat cut type nozzles p/n DN0SD261.

I like your work.

Guess it may be good to start a new thread for the discussion, and post a link here, so this thread doesn't get bogged down?




www.obed.org.uk Open Biofuel Engine Development - Collaborative biofuel engine tuning.
 
Location: UK | Registered: March 25, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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DCS:

You are right , only 1000-1500 miles with water injection, almost immediate improvement ( 15 minutes italian) Stopped inejection because forgot to fill up tank and freezing weather.
1000 miles later pinging sounds from engine at medium load. First only with diesel later with WVO as well. That is when I pulled pictured nozzle to investigate.

Paul, and others sorry for the wrong name, (Not from Louisiana )

Vegb, thanks for the correction see also google books preview for very nice description of nozzles and more.

May be it would be nice to start a thread with more pictures of only problems in wvo engines.

Later


240D, 300TD, pwrstroke, niva diesel, 73 vette, DS20, 77XJS,
 
Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I use WVO blended in cold temps hi20s-low 30s, 50-50 vo-ulsd,80-10 in summer, and water/meth inj, any thing more than 25-30% meth starts to knock under load.

Now as i have been told ,in the chamber, the meth lights off 1st ,that heats the actual injected fuel, 2nd to light off smoothly and increases turbulance at the same time which helps clean the chambers and 3rd more fully complete the burn of the VO, which turns the water into steam and expands to help push the piston down.

ON my Isuzu 1.8L it does increase power and runs smoother after use.
I use a computor thats starts out pumping lightly at 3psi manifold press, and ramps up full W/M at 7psi, it varies output as boost builds up.
around 5000miles so far no probs. starts instantly cold, no smoke.
my other Wvo car is 95 6.5T subur no conversion ay all, hard to start cold 30s,and smokes 5-10sec. but does start. no water yet!
Thx Ron
 
Location: texas | Registered: February 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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