Great list, great thread. Thanks Dana for the good info.

I also have the super-cheap wack it together water injection system on my normally aspirated Merc (240D), and would love to know your thoughts and experience with these systems and their effect on the problems in your list, especially ringland coking.

Thanks.

I have not done much work with water injection recently. I did quite a bit about 15-20 years ago though when injector tip and piston top coking was a major problem due to the crude conversions I was usng then. Water injection DID appear to work well for reducing coking in THOSE but did not appear to reduce piston RLG coking. More recent research on the mechanism by which water injection removes carbon deposits leads me to believe that it cannot since those particular carbon deposits cannot come in contact with the injected water/steam.

Don't know if Casterol is still made from casterbean oil..or if it is why that would make it much better than petroleum based lube oil for use with biofuels. I am skeptical of reports that plantoil based lubricants work better when they are produced by the vendors of the products. I can't consider those reports any more reliable than advertising claims...which is essentially what they are.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Drayton:
...thoughts and experience with these systems (water inject..) and their effect on the problems in your list, especially ringland coking..

On page 8 of this link an engineer with exprenience popped in. Might help answer lots of peoples questions.

quote:

danalinscott
member
2008 Sponsor
Posted 11 January 2008 03:49 PM Hide Post
I have not done much work with water injection recently. I did quite a bit about 15-20 years ago though when injector tip and piston top coking was a major problem due to the crude conversions I was usng then. Water injection DID appear to work well for reducing coking in THOSE but did not appear to reduce piston RLG coking. More recent research on the mechanism by which water injection removes carbon deposits leads me to believe that it cannot since those particular carbon deposits cannot come in contact with the injected water/steam.

Don't know if Casterol is still made from casterbean oil..or if it is why that would make it much better than petroleum based lube oil for use with biofuels. I am skeptical of reports that plantoil based lubricants work better when they are produced by the vendors of the products. I can't consider those reports any more reliable than advertising claims...which is essentially what they are.

Dana


danalinscott@yahoo.com
http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/

VegOil Conversions by Dana Linscott- VO Conversion
Consultation for large and small trucks, VO fuel related businesses, co-generation(power/heat)projects, and Conversion Webinars,
Posts: 5771 | Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: 06 November 2001

Hi Dana.

This thread is an interesting and valuable resource of informative guidance to those unaware of the potential to run a CI engine on non-transesterified vegetable oils and/or animal fats.

This thread deals with many SVO topics. The issues of reducing viscosity related IP workload, avoiding piston RLG coking and fuel polymerization have faced SVO users and experimentors for decades.

Having access to European records via the internet, we are able to trace the history of European SVO development.

You are considered by some to be a pioneer of domestic North American SVO technology. In the post I quoted above, it is shown that you've been researching SVO for quite some time now.



For those interested in the historical evolution of North American SVO development, how long have you been sure of the technical viability of long-term SVO fuel usage?

Put differently, when did you first find confidently repeatable, long-term success in the results of your SVO experimentation?



As I know that you have sought a consultants reputation for being carefully conservative in matters of SVO related engine longevity, the question of your full technical confidence in SVO usage seems quite important, particularly for those who value your advice considerably.

Bump again,
I appreciate the candor of Dana and some of the other knowledgeable people on here providing accurate information without any compensation or expressed reason except their own good will towards others.

thanks!
I 'll be sure to post up my experiences in a single tank WVO setup (6.2L) in the future!
Here in Texas we have it easy, the temps are almost always fairly high.

Good luck to everyone! First I must convert to diesel then baseline everything. I'm rebuilding the whole engine right now, so atleast I know what I'm starting with.

quote:

For those interested in the historical evolution of North American SVO development, how long have you been sure of the technical viability of long-term SVO fuel usage?

Just noticed this post.
Seems odd to be "bumping" a sticky post that remains on top whether it is "bumped" or not.
You probably should have just emailed me to make me aware of your post.

I wish I understood better what you meant by "sure of the technical viability of long-term SVO fuel usage". Since this is primarily a discussion on engine life when VO fuel is used I have to assume that this is what your question relates to. If that is the case I have to say I am still skeptical that the average diesel engine converted to VO fuel can reasonably be expected to last as long as it would on diesel. I use a 75%-90% figure when advising fleet clients on "between overhaul" time lengths. Which is very close to what I believe they could expect if using B100. I belive that qualifies for "long term viabilty"...but to nail down a precise date I arrived at that conclusion is difficult. I would have to say it was 2-3 years ago...but I am very conservative and so others might have reached the same conclusion a few years earlier with the same experience.

As engines wear they exhibit more blowby. In well converted engines (run on VO only when they are at full operating temp) this appears to happen at about the same rate as it would were petrodiesel the fuel. In poorly converted engines the rate can be signficantly faster.

The main difference is that when petrodiesel is used as a fuel it merely dilutes the lube oil slightly and piston ring/land/groove coking is slightly acellerated as the blowby rate increases. However when VO fuel is used the rate of blowby progression is much faster once it reaches a certain point and the partly combusted VO causes polymerization of the lube oil.

If this goes unoticed there is a strong likelyhood that the polymerized lube oil will fail to provide adequte lubrication and the engine will require replacement rather than simply a partial overhaul. More than one fleet client has ignored my warnings to monitor compression and check every oil change for any sign of lube oil polymerization. The result of this wilful ignorance has been lost revenues and increased operational costs that unneccesarily wasted a portion of the savings realized by using VO fuel. thankfully few fleet owners/managers pay me for advice and then ignore it.

Here is an example of what can happen when one does.

Ok, first post,
only one question,
If you were to use wvo in the crank case, once through the lubercation cycle to heat it, would it lubercate sufficently for the bearings, etc?
no more oil changes?
A stupid question is the one that wasn't asked or has to be answered over and over, I'll ask one time only.
Jeff

Probably not long term..and you run the risks that it would be solid in cool ambient temperatures and polymerize in the oil passages. As you might expect this has ben suggested before and though I don;t want to discourage you from experiementing with this idea I would suggest that you search the archives so you can learn from the experiences of those that have tried this before.

quote:

Originally posted by leftcoastjeff:
Ok, first post,
only one question,
If you were to use wvo in the crank case, once through the lubercation cycle to heat it, would it lubercate sufficently for the bearings, etc?
no more oil changes?
A stupid question is the one that wasn't asked or has to be answered over and over, I'll ask one time only.
Jeff

Thanx much, I've reading so many threads of late, it seemed to me I read somthing, somewhere.

Again Thanks for all the free advice
Jeff

I know this isn't the correct thread but had a question related to a one tank system in a w124 mercedes. Currently I have another w124 running with a 2 tank system and followed this sites guidelines and have not run into a problem with over 2K miles on it. My question about the one tank system is if the engine is warmed up enough prior to start (via prolonged glow plugs or plugging it into the home) would this avoid the issue of the wvo oil mixing with the lubricant oil. Wanted some insight the reason I ask is b/c I am trying to get my wife's car converted but switching tanks and driving in the city would become very problematic. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated or suggestions want to make a simple system for her to operate and helping both of us save money and help out the environment. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:

quote:

I know this isn't the correct thread

So why did you try to hijack this discussion instead of starting a discussion with your question. WTF is the matter with you!!

Thanks John Galt for the welcoming, this is my first post on the site no wonder most people give bad reps, but thank you for answering my question, which obviously you didn't. HOpefully their won't be many more jerks on here. If i would have known the correct thread I would have not posted it here, hence the beginning of my message. So my message to you JOHN GALT think before you comment! A subtle you made a mistake would have worked but obviously that is too diplomatic for your part & would require more neurons than you mental capacity dictates. Thanks once more and I will go ahead and start a new thread.

quote:

...and I will go ahead and start a new thread.

quote:

I wish I understood better what you meant by "sure of the technical viability of long-term SVO fuel usage". Since this is primarily a discussion on engine life when VO fuel is used I have to assume that this is what your question relates to. If that is the case I have to say I am still skeptical that the average diesel engine converted to VO fuel can reasonably be expected to last as long as it would on diesel. I use a 75%-90% figure when advising fleet clients on "between overhaul" time lengths. Which is very close to what I believe they could expect if using B100. I belive that qualifies for "long term viabilty"...but to nail down a precise date I arrived at that conclusion is difficult. I would have to say it was 2-3 years ago...but I am very conservative and so others might have reached the same conclusion a few years earlier with the same experience.

Hi Dana.

I see you responded way back in March. Sorry for my late reply to your reply. If I had noticed it sooner, I would have got back to you sooner.

Anyway, what I meant by asking you how long you have "been sure of the technical viability of long-term SVO fuel usage" is: when did you finally decide that SVO fuelling was a mechanically sustainable, (viable) way to fuel diesel engines?

I mean, at some point a person goes from experimenting and learning to getting to a point where he or she knows that what they are experimenting with is actually a successful proposition. I'm guessing that you are still experimenting to learn new SVO techniques, but since you are now currently a consultant, you must have made the leap from experimenter to consultant.

I guess another way to ask that question would be to ask when did you finally felt comfortable enough with the stable success of your experimentation to offer consultancy service?

I've heard that you've got close to 20 years of experience with SVO, but I read that info so long ago I can't remember whether that figure was meant to include the early days of experimentation or if it meant 20 years of solid success in applied SVO technology. IIRC, the context seemed to suggest the latter.

Some SVO kit vendors issue a disclaimer that SVO is considered an experimental technology. That's a sort of blanket "buyer beware" kind of thing. I'm sure they pretty much know that a proper SVO conversion and proper SVO modified maintenance schedule will be mechanically sustainable. Since they are selling kits and have no way of knowing whether the conversions will be proper, they add the disclaimer.

As a professional consultant, a performance guarantee is certainly preferrable to a liability disclaimer. I think you offer your fleet clients a solid guarantee, right?

Anyway, since you started this SVO tech thread on SVO maintenance and optimisation, I thought it might make sense to ask how long you have been sure that SVO fuelling is a properly viable technology.

So, how long have you been totally sure about the viability of SVO ?

quote:

I've heard that you've got close to 20 years of experience with SVO, but I read that info so long ago I can't remember whether that figure was meant to include the early days of experimentation or if it meant 20 years of solid success in applied SVO technology. IIRC, the context seemed to suggest the latter.

Some SVO kit vendors issue a disclaimer that SVO is considered an experimental technology. That's a sort of blanket "buyer beware" kind of thing. I'm sure they pretty much know that a proper SVO conversion and proper SVO modified maintenance schedule will be mechanically sustainable. Since they are selling kits and have no way of knowing whether the conversions will be proper, they add the disclaimer.

As a professional consultant, a performance guarantee is certainly preferrable to a liability disclaimer. I think you offer your fleet clients a solid guarantee, right?

Anyway, since you started this SVO tech thread on SVO maintenance and optimisation, I thought it might make sense to ask how long you have been sure that SVO fuelling is a properly viable technology.

So, how long have you been totally sure about the viability of SVO ?

So before this thread becomes about Yusefs' misplaced post and peoples general forum manners, maybe we can address this threads topic of SVO engine longevity measures.

Since this thread is a sticky and was originally initiated by a prominent SVO consultant, it would be nice to get some verification on whether long-term SVO fuelling in a CI engine is actually a viable practice or not.

It seems that the best person to answer that question would be the threads originator, since he chose this topic and its title.

Sorry to talk about you in the 3rd person, Dana, I just wanted to remind people of why you started this thread in the first place.

Dana, how long have you been sure of the mechanical sustainability (suitability) of burning SVO as diesel motor fuel?

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:

quote:

I know this isn't the correct thread

So why did you try to hijack this discussion instead of starting a discussion with your question. WTF is the matter with you!!

Ok, I love to just read and glean knowledge from all the smart peoples in here. This one, however, inspired me to comment.

So, yes, maybe Mr. Galt could've been nicer, but my first response to that is 'frickin waah, suck it up', my second response is, 'there is a frickin sticky thread right below this one even that says Welcome..., which is full of useful info to help those who are not knowledgeable about all the cool acronyms and methods of manipulating posts, etc.

So, for the people who have jobs and families and reasons to not be sitting in front of the damm computer all day thinking up cutesy ways to do things online, a little effort is required to operate in a way that won't waste the time of and subsequently offend the knowledgeable people that have info to offer.

I mean, really, it's not that hard to read the Welcome post and figure out where you should put yer post. To not, is just laziness, and that to me is good reason for someone who works hard to gain and maintain knowledge and experience, to be offended in a big way.

So, hopefully, my post is not too far off topic or too hurtful to people's feelers. I apologize if it is. Willful ignorance (stupidity) is just very annoying to me.

Okay, so here we have a great thread on the topic of methods of extending CI engine life when running SVO that is full of interesting tech details.

Someone somewhat accidently missplaced a thread, someone else overreacted and then a running commentary started focussing on the disruption rather than the topic!?!? Should this thread be retitled "A dialogue on missplaced postings"?...

Dana went through the effort to start this sticky thread as a service to the forum (I assume).

People responded (on topic) because they felt the topic had merrit (assuming again).

People disrupted because they either felt the thread or the forum lacked merrit (more assumption again).

If folks don't value this thread, can you at least pollute one that's not a prominent sticky (please)?

Isn't it possible to delete all this crap in the thread(s) which get infected??

Yes, but someone has to flag the OT/uncivil posts for moderation.

I don't like doing that much because there's often a fine line between censorship and good bandwidth management (nothing insinuated). I usually only flag spam.

If an uncomfortable post has decent tech merit but is a little rough around the edges, it seems oversensitive flag it for moderation, but when someone comes onto a thread just to fan the flames of a dying fight without at least giving something to the technical topic at hand, it starts to look like an abuse of freedom and forum.

Oh well...

This has been a most informative thread. I thank those that added info.

I am in the process of buying a TDI 01-03 model and seriously considering WVO conversion. I do mostly long hwy trips and as such believe it is a viable alternative to dinodiesel...most of the time.

The posts and related offshoots on water/meth injection were of special interest and I am curious if anyone with a TDI such as what i am contemplating has done said WVO coversion and added water injection system.?

Thank you,

stk

Hi Steakman.

There's an Australian fella here named DCS who has experience with water injection in a Mercedes.

I think he runs on WVO, so he might have some good insight for you.

Although the older Mercedes are a different engine than the newer TDIs, He may have information on how the difference in engine style could possibly effect the way water injection works in your TDI. It may function just the same or there may be other considerations.