Bio-Fool Warning -- DON'T DO IT!

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Yes it will ruin everything, please folks, especially those who have recently become interested in doing this, DON'T DO IT!

If you already have an oil supply, let the good folks on this forum know, they can help take it off your hands.

Great idea!!! People who have come to their senses can dispose of their unwanted VO supplies by posting their location and phone number here in this useful discussion.

How can we get more mechanics to post big bold BIO-FUEL WARNING signs in their shops?


I suspect that most diesel mechanic's experience with any biofuels, is with the vast majority of biofuel bio-fools, who think biodiesel is pouring fryer oil through a Tshirt and into the tank to mix with whatever D2 they're running, and goodness knows what else.

There's an attitude among a lot of alternative diesel fuel users that if the truck don't choke and die on what they put into the fuel filler hole, then everything is OK. These same folks keep mechanics well employed, and not just with bio-fool issues.

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There's an attitude among a lot of alternative diesel fuel users that if the truck don't choke and die on what they put into the fuel filler hole, then everything is OK.

I agree to some extent...and that POV tends to be "backed up" with the accusation that those saying converting is any harder than that are "just trying to make a buck off of "suckers"". Which is just another example of posting discussion discouraging cheap shots.

The fact is that civility is the basis for all productive technical discussions.

Now..we have a mechanic that is of the opinoin that

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problems arose using the wisdom of the forums. I just want to warn those out there that you may save money now, but later you will pay for it.

and

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see it on TV how easy it is. BUT do not think that things come easy.

And I think that I would not be alone in agreeing that this is quite possible.

He also states that

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I am seeing ALOT of diesel from Cummins, PSD, Duramx, CATs, Mercedes, and been ruined by WVO and biodiesel. We see clogged injectors, ruined IPs, Ruined lift pumps. And these engines have less than 100,000 miles on them.

and again..I think that there are many experienced hands who post and read this forum that would agree that this is far from impossible.

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Some people I have talked to that brought thier trucks in did the filtering correctly. They frequent these forums. So it is linked to using grease that is thick instead of diesel that is thinner.

This however I might take issue with...in a civil manner...by asking which prefiltering method was used..and even more importantly was dewatering done and if so was the suspended water removed to levels lower than 500 ppm?

I might also ask why he feels it is due to thick grease that this damage manifested itself if these individuals frequent this forum since it is almost universally agreed here that it is very important to heat VO to temps that make it very thin prior to injection.

Of course this is only possible if everyone in the discussion acts in a civil manner. Otherwise folks tend to just refrain from posting at all or quickly realize that they are just opening themselves to abuse and stop as quickly as they started.

tcr1016..if you are still here...would you mind answering the above questions? I think that folks will behave themselves now that the moderator has requested that the sniping stop.

Perhaps we can ALL learn something from the answers and possibel discussion that follows.

WOW I never thought this would spark a fire. I was only trying to warn people. For those who just think I am a mechanic, I want to say I have used WVO with 2 other mechanics and helped convert clients, and our trucks. We filtered according to heating and settling and centrifuging. But we had and see problem in running WVO and biodiesel. We do not blame the bio or wvo till we can prove it. That is why our shop is preferred and those that use alternative fuel come to us.

The problems do not come right away, but in the 30K to 50K miles.

I agree with the admin saying stop sniping. I am just saying what i have seen and proved. Now not everyone will have problems, but most. Just like some can eat fatty foods all their life and not have problems, as most of us would develop health problems.

I am just trying to warn people about the hype. Remember when everyone thought the sunbathing was fine. Now many suffer (horribly) from bad hype.

The underlying problem is high melt point PHO and animal fats. Filtering according to heating and settling and centrifuging does not remove them from "WVO". Also when they're made into biodiesel, the HMP problem remains. The high melt point fractions get into the fuel tank, and when the temperature drops these components precipitate out, clogging screens, fuel lines, filters and damaging IPs. Newer vehicles are much less tolerant of this.

The problem is the same for biodiesel or VO unless the fuel system is heated.

If one wants to run a cold fuel system with VO or Biodiesel, then the HMP components must be separated from the mix before it goes into the vehicle tank . Chill the fuel mix and only pump the top clear fraction into the vehicle.

The other problem with high melt point PHO and animal fats, is that they absorb and retain water, and carry water, and the contaminants like salt dissolved in it, into the fuel system where it can cause the damage noted above.

My experience is limited. Since 2005, I've been using VO-ULSD mixes in two 80s era Toyota trucks, for an aggregate 60,000 km. The VO is clear, dry, cold-processed, recycled canola fryer oil. There have been no fuel system or engine problems.

Heating still does not help the problem.

Heating "WVO" while processing and filtering is what causes the problem. Heating the HMP fuel won't solve the problem because the fuel system cools between drive cycles and crud collects.

Good quality dry-tested clear oil does not cause problems. Anything else does. Did you moisture test the oil you used, did the clients with failed engines test theirs?

There's lots of folks running VO-ULSD fuel blends for years but mechanics won't see them because they don't have fuel system problems.

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Originally posted by tcr1016:
I was only trying to warn people.

But we had and see problem in running WVO and biodiesel. We do not blame the bio or wvo till we can prove it.

I am just trying to warn people about the hype..

Please forgive me if you feel I was "sniping." I would suggest that your heading which SHOUTED "WARNING!!!" is a red flag, and the incomplete nature of your warning invites many of us to take offense. We use these forums to post and exchange information, and not to post "hype." That certainly happens in the media. It is best when information is posted here in well-reasoned terms, which yours (please forgive me) was not.

Lots of people, including mechanics, have converted vehicles that were not first made to run completely up to spec in the areas that are crucial to running WVO. (I am NOT suggesting that is the case with you.) Many people do not bother testing for water in their fuel every batch. Many people filter to 5 or 10 microns nominal, which is useless for protecting a vehicle. People use filters like whole house filters, that are not adequate for WVO without modifications to prevent WVO from bypassing the filters. People use "permanent" reusable mesh filters in their vehicles and think it is fine. People don't pay attention to the WVO they are collecting and processing (as per John Galt's post). It is practices like these that cause catastrophic failures using WVO, not the use of the fuel. The ignorance of the end user is the problem.

My car just had to have the tank dropped and cleaned and the fuel line blown out because of bad diesel I got. Really nasty stuff.

WARNING!! DON"T USE DIESEL FUEL!!

See what I mean? Saying something like that is inappropriate. Forgive my shouting.

Studies have demonstrated unequivocally that single tank WVO systems can work without damage to any engine systems for hundreds of thousands of miles (in Germany where it gets plenty cold). But the system has to be up to the task, and the vehicle must be properly prepared and maintained.

Please post your specific experiences. If you knew of someone who burned their house and vehicle to the ground, that is a reason to shout a warning, as was posted last summer. If you feel there is something profound, please considering asking for feedback before you start shouting.

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I am just trying to warn people about the hype.

And that's not a bad thing..but consider that a blanket warning such as you provided may easily be misinterpreted by some to imply that biodiesel and SVO/WVO conversions inevitably cause serious long term engine problems. I am sure that that is not what you meant to comunicate.

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We filtered according to heating and settling and centrifuging.

Could you please be a bit more specific? There are lots of different procedures suggested involving settling and centrifuging.

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not everyone will have problems, but most.

I agree that most folks with new conversions have problems. But most of those problems are not serious in my experience. Usually the causes of most common problems can be fairly easily determined and fixed. Similarly most of the root causes of less common serious (long term) problems can also be determined if enough information is provided.

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Heating still does not help the problem.

I agree that simply heating WVO does not assure that all the problems which CAN occurr in long term use of wvo as fuel won't. It isn't quite as simple as that. But again..since you and the other mechanics working in your alternative fuels shop have obviously seen quite a wide range of long term problems associated with biodiesel and VO use perhap if you care to discuss in a bit more detail the wvo processing, conversion configurations, and operational protocols that might have contributed to causing these problems everyone could benefit from the discussion.


At the very least it would increase our knowledge base of what the "don'ts" are for wvo conversion if one wants to avoid long term serious problems with VO conversions.

I'm new to all of this, but I'm learning fast with the help of this forum and others.

The original poster is a mechanic with a point of view, and I respect that he said he has tried wvo himself. Its just his opinion. I agree the WARNING header was not appropriate but not the end of the world either.

I've converted my Suburban, have about 1,500 miles on wvo, just got back from a 450 mile round trip on which I burned maybe 5 gallons of diesel, the rest wvo. I'm smiling every mile of the way, so if you ask me I'll tell you the conversion works great.

That doesn't mean I don't want to listen to people who say the systems fail, just as I want to listen to those like me who say it works great. That's how I'll learn what to do, and what not to do.

When I was talking with people, a few of them mechanics, about getting my vehicle converted the response was pretty negative. It won't work, or it will work but no power, or it will work until winter when I'll have a ball of sludge in my tank, etc. Nobody was telling me I was stupid, they were just warning me from their knowledge and experience. I had some great conversations, including one guy who was very negative and now is watching my progress with great interest. I told him he could take my truck and run it to see how it all felt, he might end up being a convert.

Sorry to be long winded, but it takes ALL angles to make a good, educational conversation.

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Some components of svo/wvo and (poorly processed) biodiesel are also hygroscopic in nature and so can slowly (or in some cases not so slowly) absorb water form the atmosphere unless stored in completely airtight containers and used quickly once introduced into a vehicles fuel tank.

Anyone know if this is true, or how true it is. I have about 65 gallons on board, sometimes when I am not on a trip it can take me several weeks or even a month to go through it all. Is it picking up water while sitting in my tank? I live in a very humid area so the possibility concerns me a bit.
Rusty

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Is it picking up water while sitting in my tank? I live in a very humid area so the possibility concerns me a bit.

This is a concern worth investigating, considering the potential damage that could occur to your engine. I'd suggest draining a sample from your tank and test it for water. I assume your tank isn't sealed from the atmosphere. If it is sealed, then you should have no worries.

One strategy to reduce moisture accumulation is to keep the SVO tank full if it's going to sit for a while.
Cheers,
JohnO

Take a look at hydraulic tank desiccant breathers to install on tank vent line ( like John Galt's links )- for example -

http://198.170.245.162/catalogs/SentryCata.pdf

http://www.agmcontainer.com/desiccators/cust_desic/

Also hang a silica gel bead filled piece of perforated pipe in the filler neck ? One would need to periodically remove and rejuvenate the slica gel with heat .

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rkpatt,

I have been running 3 vehicles on homebrew and svo with absolutely no problems other than rarely visiting my local gas station. My opinion is that there are so many different types of vehicles and so many different types of oil used for fuel that we need to remember that when we decide to pour homemade fuel into our tanks, we are essentially experimenting. Will it work or will it not? You may say that it is an educated roll of the dice.

Non-computerized engines in warm climates are the most tolerant of variable fuel quality.

Modern computerized engines are designed to reduce emissions specifically with ULSD fuels. Components are not designed for high viscosity fuels like cold VO. The sensors and software are not designed for the specifics of biofuels. The colder it gets with higher percentages of biofuel the more problems occur.

Just got another engine in today with coked injectors and blown IP. I am so amazed on what people are doing to engines. But when asking people the average is 30,000 miles after they start running WVO before problems. But the 96 Cummins today is at 45,000 on WVO, well processed. Poor guy is going to pay in excess of 7000 in damages. Like I say I am just here to inform.

We have proven WVO and Bio is hurting engines.

Forgot to say he only has 75K on the engine.

tcr1016-I understand the point you are making and sure hate to see disappointed owners and these good vehicles going to waste . Unless the WVO conversion is well designed and properly installed and the owner is diligent, this is should be an expected consequence.

WARNING: VO fuel NOT for Dummies.

That's the accurate title of this discussion.

Contrary to what some would want us to believe, the problems are not with the VO fuel, the problems are with the DUMMIES.

To use VO based fuels safely and for engine longevity, the amount of diligence and attention to detail required is simply beyond the attention span of your average "pump-and-go" North American vehicle user.

For some reason the one that came in today was professional installed and the processor was bought from a company named on this site. I will not give the names since that could get me in trouble. We see more that are done DIY but done right (plumbing and right temps when switching over). I have personally visited some houses to look at the processors to help, but most were done right. That is why gremlins do not show up for 10 of thousands of miles.

I am not here to change people, just to show our findings and the proof we have that engines are being ruined by this fad.

Tcr1016,

It is important to learn about WVO related engine/part failures. Thanks for posting. It is crucial to know what and why the part failed and how this is due to WVO. Furthermore, what kind of oil was used, from where? What kit is installed in the vehicle...how many owners...what was the pre-filtering process, did any of the WVO kit parts fail?? Otherwise, we can only make assumptions as to if and why WVO caused the problem.
All be it, running WVO in a vehicle can be nothing more than experimental. We can only do our best, be meticulous as possible to insure engine longevity and reduce the risks. There will still be risks...
I bought the most solid and best kit with the latest technology for my truck. Install bungles and failed parts may contribute to my engine's demise. Hopefully I caught the problems early enough. Also, what if there are chemicals in my oil...sugars? Salt? Will that kill my engine?
TCR1016 will see even more vehicles in his shop due to inexperienced installers, new inadequate kit manufacturers, and scarcity of good, quality oil.
Alas, I've done my best in assuring the commonly know parameters are met to reduce the risks, but I know there may be something missed. I run veg anyhow......I had no f-ing idea how difficult and expensive and illegal it was to convert, collect, process oil. Kind of found out after the fact.
Don't get into WVO unless you want to take on a very large commitment and possibly ruin your engine and other components

It's an unfortunate fact of life, but it's easier to shoot the messenger than to address the issue. Ok, maybe the title of this thread may have rubbed a few folks (me included) the wrong way, but I think the poster comes here candidly under the tongue of good report to share his experience. Let's try to stay civic and factual and let me be first to ask: "What kind of trend of damage do you see ? and as a professional, what could be causing it and more importantly, how to prevent it from happening ?"
Cheers,