I am a diesel mechanic and I am seeing ALOT of diesel from Cummins, PSD, Duramx, CATs, Mercedes, and been ruined by WVO and biodiesel. We see clogged injectors, ruined IPs, Ruined lift pumps. And these engines have less than 100,000 miles on them.

Bills in excess of $5000 on a vehicle they paid $20,000 for. 1/4 the price.

Don't get me wrong I see it on TV how easy it is. BUT do not think that things come easy. I run diesel now since the problems are everywhere. Even Arnie (Gov. of CA) had a pricey problem from running WVO.

I have talked to other mechanics and we see the same thing.

Now I ran WVO and helped a few friends, and problems arose using the wisdom of the forums. I just want to warn those out there that you may save money now, but later you will pay for it.

I feel like the larger mechanical problems that people develop from bio or VO use are due to either negligence or lack of knowledge of doing things right. Like the guy who exploded his methanol drum in his garage with oily rags. No offense to anyone who has done this.

It seems like clogged injectors can be avoided with properly cleaned fuel oils. Ruined IP's seem to be caused mostly from wet fuels. If there was less green-washing about how easy biofuels can be, and the knowledge bases had a bit less intent to sell, or if people weren't so quick on the thought of saving a buck.. Maybe there is more we can do as greasers, from an anonymous standpoint, to help the people on the short end of the curve.

Some people I have talked to that brought thier trucks in did the filtering correctly. They frequent these forums. So it is linked to using grease that is thick instead of diesel that is thinner. But also I am seeing ATF is better for the engine instead of grease.

A local IP and injctor repair shop said biodiesel and veg oil have been good for his business also.
I personally have saved enough on fuel saving on my truck to have paid for the truck and all of the repairs. And maybe made up for a few of those earlier VW and Mercedes that I owned.

I'm one of those people who gave the local injection shops more business than I expected.

"You reap what you sow".
If you simply poor used cooking oil into the tank of your vehicle, there are a whole variety of bad things that will eventually happen. Poorly converted vehicles, poorly filtered grease, etc... it's all par for the course.

If however you do your homework, invest in good equipment and put in the time to learn it, the problems are minimal.

I've got 40K on veg and I'm glad I stuck with it through the initial problems.

I agree with the earlier greenwashign statement. I've seen so many articles on jsut runnign straight WVO that make no mention of it requiring a proper conversion that I am not surprised that I see more diesels in the junk yard. Even Mythbusters-a fairly popular show in America-ran a 300D on WVO with no problems. They hadn't converted it though. Even with the suoper robust engine in those things that kind of abuse wouldn't take long to take its toll.

I think those running into problems just don't have a well designed system. I'm over 10K miles on my conversion now, and have had problems, but nothing catastrophic. Just air leaks and clogged filters... Now I need some wood to knock on.

quote:

Originally posted by tcr1016:
I am a diesel mechanic and I am seeing ALOT of diesel from Cummins, PSD, Duramx, CATs, Mercedes, and been ruined by WVO and biodiesel. We see clogged injectors, ruined IPs, Ruined lift pumps. And these engines have less than 100,000 miles on them.

Bills in excess of $5000 on a vehicle they paid $20,000 for. 1/4 the price.

Don't get me wrong I see it on TV how easy it is. BUT do not think that things come easy. I run diesel now since the problems are everywhere. Even Arnie (Gov. of CA) had a pricey problem from running WVO.

I have talked to other mechanics and we see the same thing.

Now I ran WVO and helped a few friends, and problems arose using the wisdom of the forums. I just want to warn those out there that you may save money now, but later you will pay for it.

Yep, It's a terrible thing this veg oil business. You should take it as your responsibility as an automotive professional to warn everyone you can to stay well away from it.

I have taken it upon myself to show what a detriment this stuff is by running it in my own car as an example. I have over 35,000 KM on it with veg now and I expect it to fall over at any tick of the clock even though it only has 360,000 km on the car. I'm sure it will cost more to repair than I paid for the car but luckily I have saved 4 times what the car owes me so far in fuel costs but I'm getting the feeling catastrophe will be coming down on me any year now!

I wouldn't go near the stuff myself if it wasn't to prove this point and show others how bad and misrepresented this stuff is. The last think we want is hoards of people sucking every last drop of veg oil out of dumpsters and coming to realize there isn't enough to go round!

Well done with this important warning and Please keep up the good work!!

BTW, before all these Vehicles came to you for repair that were running veg oil, did you ever have any other cars come to you to be repaired and if so, what were they running that caused them to fail??

quote:

ruined by WVO and biodiesel. We see clogged injectors, ruined IPs, Ruined lift pumps. And these engines have less than 100,000 miles on them.

I think that it is interesting that you include biodiesel in this warning. I DO notice that there is a LOT more articles in trucking and fleet oriented publications noting damage being attributed to biodiesel. And in most cases I would wager it is poorly made biodiesel (blends) that are causing those particular problems. That biodiesel which is incompletely processed CAN apparrently cause problems should surprise no one. But it appears to me that the NBB IS surprised that even at the low blend rates in B10 poorly made commercial biodiesel is creating problems for fleets. This is I suppose the main reason for the NBBs new push for actual testing of biodiesel plant production discussed in many of the recent NBB interviews. Quailty control it appears is very important when it comes to fuel processing. I guess I am just not too surprised to hear thet.

Similarly I am not surprised to hear that now (after engines run on SVO/WVO have begun to accumulate some serious miles) problems are showing up in a substantial number of engines converted to VO as well. While I think that MANY of these problems can be directly attributed to low WVO/VO fuel standards just as many can be attributed to poorly executed conversions and lack operator understanding of what it takes to run a diesel engine on SVO/WVO and avoid long term problems. Much of the responsibility for this lays at the feet of those selling conversion kits to the public.

For the most part kit vendors appear themselves unaware of the long term problems that thier customers NEED to be aware of in order to avoid them. And those that are aware of these problems have a major economic incentive to ignore them. It is pretty clear that the simpler the conversion APPEARS the more likely that potential customers will purchase it. To be fair the DEMAND for a simple and cheap conversion by the "public" is what creates the incentive to produce and sell "simple and cheap" conversion kits...as well as not fully inform the public of the possible consequences of using them or how difficult in may truely be to process "free" WVO into a fuel that can be safely used long term.

Nearly every time I have attempted to discuss the problems associated with using SVO/WVO as fuel those who either profit in some way from the public perception that SVO/WVO fuel is extremely simple to process and use or those that strongly believe that it is (without much of a basis for that belief) that the discussion is disrupted and sidetracked to the point of uslessness.

Perhaps those days are past.
I certainly hope so as I am once again presenting my current understanding of what causes the majority of problems associated with using WVO/SVO as fuel in diesel engines. Although I have presented most of this information in seperate discussions this may be a good opprotunity to condense it.

1. Inadequate processing of WVO/SVO as fuel.

What is generally referred to as SVO/WVO is a mixture of many different components. Some of these components are corrosive or reactive when passed through a diesel engines fuel system. One of the most common is water ... which must be brought to extremely low levels in order to avoid cavitation damage in the "high pressure" areas of the fuel injection system. Cavitation has been extensivly discussed previously and is (I believe) now generally accepted as the main cause of injector and IP damage in engines using WVO/SVO as fuel. I suspect that much of the injector pump and injector damage seen in engines using (poorly made) biodiesel is also due excessive water content. Some components of svo/wvo and (poorly processed) biodiesel are also hygroscopic in nature and so can slowly (or in some cases not so slowly) absorb water form the atmosphere unless stored in completely airtight containers and used quickly once introduced into a vehicles fuel tank.

Water caused cavitation damage not erodes the close tolerance components of IPs and injectors but leads to more significant secondary and tertiary damage if not detected and repaired quickly.

The "water" which exists in SVO/WVO tends to absorb any water soluble contaminants in the SVO/WVO as well. And while fairly dilute normally these water soluble contaminats tend to be concentrated rather than removed by any form of dewatering process that uses "evaporation" rather than "seperation by mass" to remove "water". These contaminants (sugars/acids/salts/etc) CAN be reactive to the metals present in the fuel system AND concentrating these components makes them even more reactive with the materials exposed to them in diesel fuel systems. Single tank conversions expose these components to these reactive components of the SVO/WVO fuel(if present) more than "two tank" conversion thereby rapidly accellerateng the effects of these reactions and decreasing the amount of time that elapses before primary (IP and injector) damage ocurrs.

2. Inadequate understanding of the operational procedures needed to avoid long term engine component damage.

IMO operator error is the second most obvious reason for VO fuel damage to diesel engines. Generally this takes two forms.

The most common operator error tends to be switching to VO fuel before the diesel engine is warmed adequately to allow for adequate combustion of the fuel AND/or to prevent excessive leaking of the high pressure combusting fuel/air mix (above the pistons) past the upper piston rings. When partially combusted VO bypasses the upper rings it tends to accumulate in the form of carbon deposits between the piston rings and the groove machined in the piston. This in turn leads to (more serious) secondary and tertiary damage. Cavitation damage to IPs and injectors appears to acllerate this tendency as it promotes poor fuel injection and or leaks in the injectors themselves. Even very small leaks in injectors lead to unwanted carbon accretions on the exterior of injectors that interfere with combustion efficiency (thereby creating a higher probability of piston ring/land coking).

Also common is the failure of operators to completely purge the fuel injection system of wvo prior to shutting the engine off.
When VO (or a blend of VO)remains in the IP, injector lines and/or fuel injectors clogging of injectors can result. This in turn can lead to poor fuel combustion and or leaking fuel injectors..and the attendant secondary and tertiary engine damage associated with these conditions.

3. Inadequate understanding of the design requirements of a VO conversion needed to avoid long term engine component damage.

VO conversion has been in a highly experimental phase for around 2 decades now but (due mainly to the greatly increased ability of those experimenting with VO fuel conversions to communicate) the amount of experimentation has increased exponentially over the past 6-8 years. While many choose to "start from scratch" when designing and fabricating their VO conversion "experiments" the majority are using prefabricated "kits" available (mainly) on the internet. Both types of VO conversions run the gamut from very well researched, designed, and fabricated to very poorly researched, designed, and fabricated. Some even "convert" to VO fuel by simply substituting SVO/WVO for diesel fuel in response to their belief that if a diesel engine will RUN on SVO/WVO it is proof that no conversion components are required at all. Although I disagree with this position I understand it all too well having subscribed to it for several years myself in my earliest attempts to use WVO as a fuel substitute.

I don't know if I have much hope that the trend of more reports of damaged fuel system components and damaged engines will change. With more and more VO conversions I suspect that there will be more and more such reports. From my POV that is not neccesarily a BAD thing since VO conversion research and development has far too much momentum for such reports to effectivly slow it.

I suppose regular diesel never caused a problem? HAAAAA! Keep dreaming.

I find the topic as presented here to be a waste of space and time. Incompetent filtering, conversions, and use of WVO is dangerous. Duh. But that is not what this poster has said.

If you have something helpful to say, say with specifics and make a point that is useful. If you want to sound an alarm like this, go to the media. The rest of us will gladly take the oil.

Why is it that so manyof posters in this discussion choose to attack or belittle the original poster? He has some obviously valid points that are worthy of discussion in a technical discussion.

Or has the point become to simply make anyone posting information or opinions like this sorry they did by going sarcastic and personal right off the bat?

I had hoped that those days were behind us..but perhaps I was wrong.

He is only seeing one side, He is a MECHANIC. Have you ever brought your car to the mechanic to say "Well shes been running good!" NO, you bring it there when it is broke, wether it be a loose tie rod or a bad injector. End of story. Everytime I bring my truck in for a problem it will be blamed on biodiesel. Example: I had a fuel pump go out, was pretty bummed out. Ford dealership said "Yupp we see this all the time, you are running more of a percentage of Biodiesel than Ford Says too" Well I drove 2 blocks down the road and same issue! What was the cause? Was it bad biodiesel that the dealer had just stated caused the problem? NO! After it took them nearly 2 days to figure it out, mainly because they were so convinced that it WAS the biodiesel, It was a pin hole in a fuel line where a clamp had gouged.

Why start a post with a title "WARNING!!!!" then?



Was your post just deleted Dana?

quote:

Was your post just deleted Dana?

Yes..I decided that I could probably restate my position in a clearer manner almost as soon as I had posted it.

quote:

He is only seeing one side, He is a MECHANIC. Have you ever brought your car to the mechanic to say "Well shes been running good!" NO, you bring it there when it is broke, wether it be a loose tie rod or a bad injector. End of story.

End of story? Not in my experience.

When there is a problem in one of the conversions I have participated in we try to get to the root of it. I don't place nearly as much value in the repair as I do in the accurate diagnosis of what caused the problem. THAT diagnosis may lead to new knowledge and greater understanding of how to use VO with a minimal impact on engine/component life.

This is what led me to originally propose that even very tiny amounts of water in VO might be important to remove (cavitation). THAT was an unpopular concept when it was first proposed and my suggestion prompted a LOT of individuals to post remarks that were intended to question MY personal credibility and so by association the "warning" of cavitation I proposed.

Nowadays arguing that no one needs to worry about water that does not easily settle out seems kinda silly. Yet if I had not continued the dialogue on THAT subject depite what developed into some pretty nasty personal attacks perhaps THAT discussion would have died out prematurely a well.

Many of the discussions I have started on problems with use of VO fuel has led to useful conclusions but did so only when the negative, sarcastic, and too often nasty and personal posts of failed to end them.

If we don't make this forum hospitible to POVs that may not mirror our own..based entirely on what we already percieve..how will the science of VO conversion available to the public continue to advance?

well its good to have debates if people are nice about it.Thats how we learn.
I'd like to see more on wmo as wvo is dried up in my area.

quote:

Why start a post with a title "WARNING!!!!" then?

Because that is what it is.
At least to his POV.

And he has a point....there are a LOT more converted diesels showing up in shops with problems than in the past. I suspect that part of this is due to the fact that there are a lot more conversions out there and a lot more conversions accumulating the kind of miles where long term problems show up. But I also suspect that there are also a lot more poorly designed and outdated design conversions on the road then ever before as well.

At least one of the forums more experienced members has posted similar "warnings" and I have to agree with most of what he posted. VO conversion is still too often presented as a "just pour VO into the tank and it will RUN so everything must be OK right?" manner.

Hey..I can respect the POV that "I save more $ by running wvo than it costs me to repair the damage it does" but I cannot accept that this should be the ONLY accepted POV. Isn't it much more logical to encourage ANY discussion relating to VO conversions on the forums even if it seems misguided in the beginning?

quote:

well its good to have debates if people are nice about it.Thats how we learn.

Exactly...but the debate ends when civility does. Angry exchanges, sarcasm, and personal attacks are the death of useful technical disucssions.

quote:

This guy wants to pick a fight, why else would he come on to a VO forum and imply that we're idiots for using VO fuel.

I don't see that implication at all John.

Perhaps we read

quote:

Now I ran WVO and helped a few friends, and problems arose using the wisdom of the forums. I just want to warn those out there that you may save money now, but later you will pay for it.

differently.

Okay, stop sniping at each other.

Shaun

Yes it will ruin everything, please folks, especially those who have recently become interested in doing this, DON'T DO IT!

If you already have an oil supply, let the good folks on this forum know, they can help take it off your hands.

Maybe I should stop greasing too, its only been 200K + miles in the last 9 yrs with ZERO fuel system or engine related problems. With today's fuel prices, I must be a fool to risk my older tractor, generator, Benz & VW.

Seriously though, it all depends on what you're greasing and how you take care of it. I would never grease one of the new generation diesel's, not worth the risk even at 5 buck a gallon.