If this does work out to be a viable large volume wvo processing method I will be buying quite a few of the components for fleet client use. I woudl probably be willing to make them avaialbe to forum members at close to my cost as I do with FPHEs.
But that may be a few months away.
Possibly a goup buy is the way to start out.
I asked the seller about purchasing the unit without the mount. He responded with THIS LINK
$198 without mount
$230 with mount
Yep, I ordered one. I'm in the one day shipping range if it goes UPS. Had to pay sales tax since we're both in CA, but shipping is included.
Group buys, I would guess you'd have to buy a case to get a discount. That way they'd save on the shipping. Wouldn't hurt to ask...
Looks like I'll be hooking up a PS pump to the motor for my centrifuge project for now. What timing, I have all the parts piled here to make an 8" basket centrifuge, for about $100-200. May end up building a go-kart instead if the cyclone works to my satisfaction
Usually the only way to get a decent discount is to buy these at the same time, 20-30 units at once.
1985 Mercedes 300D, sold, Heat exchanger and injector line heaters, all single tank. 1997 E300D Benz ... biodiesel.
They are welcome. All inputs and questions should be welcome. I can only believe that all on this board want clean, non-damaging, WVO/UCO/BD and stifling any train of thought into what would create that is self-defeating.
I would have to concur. Exceeding the specs of any machine usually results in machine failure and in worst case scenarios leads to death.
Think about one of these Dieselcraft centrifuge exploding from a minor stress fracture? If you happen to be standing near that open barrel shown on the first page of this post, you are likely to die.
In normal operation, the Dieselcraft is under the hood, correct? If it becomes a grenade in the engine compartment, you have an engine, hood, firewall, windshield, dash, steering wheel, etc. between you and it to absorb high velocity shards of metal.
Please, put something around it to contain failures. Even if it's just a milk crate covered with one inch plywood.
As much as I don't want to agree, I'll agree. I very much want to get away from the need for washing first. It's messy, uses a lot of water (over time), creates another waste stream, and consumes extra energy (pump, etc.).
Ah, but it's not your stomach that is being injected at 20,000+ psi, where any touch of contamination is pressure etching fine groves into your injectors.
I personally don't want to replace injectors or the injection pump because I didn't do due diligence in cleaning my fuel. So, for the moment, it's cheap insurance that I'm not screwing up my engine.
Now onto a brighter note:
If you set a cubee of oil in an open field on a clear day, the sun will heat the cubee to 125 all by itself. (high for the day was 90, temperatures taken about 4pm, tested just last week)
If you have the space and can scrounge a few discarded pieces of window or sliding glass door then you can create a solar 'box' to house your settling and/or mist washing barrels. Water in a solar collector hits boiling fairly rapidly, but there isn't much quantity of water at any one point in time. Extrapolating, and given a reasonably air tight (but not too tight as you want water vapor expelled) solar 'box' around your barrels, the oil temp should hit 150 easily and once the water has been burned off, should climb to somewhere over 215.
This might limit you to running your Dieselcraft to the late afternoon, but, over time it would sure save a bunch on electric.
I'll be building the above solar barrel 'box' sometime in the next month and will post pictures and data as they come available.
Best regards all,
PS: So no one has ever heard of or used an Electrostatic Coalescers / Precipitators? Shameless plug, but if you have, please post it to http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/2171046761 . Thanks.
Very very very COOL!! If I wasn't flat broke and in the market for a new snowboard right now I'd be all over it!
I have one question/concern.. Early in this thread it was mentioned that the unit was tested with fairly decent oil... How does it perform with really nasty oil? I really like the idea of mistwashing, heating, etc because it can all be done in the same barrel! The tiny rotor looks like it might fill up easily... but with a circulation-type filtering schematic it wouldnt matter.. you wouldn't have to worry about contaminating your clean oil if the rotor fills with gunk....very very cool... I especially like the dewatering aspects of the unit (high-to-low pressure = lower bp)...
As for heating, another idea for a solar heater might be a large concave mirror?? maybe focused on the unit itself or a small metal box in the pressure line (painted black of course)?? Kind of like a giant magnifying glass... If you had the patience you could probably make one yourself with a ball-pean hammer, a swage block, and a copper, brass, or some other metal sheet, some silver polish, etc etc... just dont leave it outside ... I remember seeing a really small one at an alternative energy fair, some sort of novelty lighter..
As far as mobile application is concerned, I would really like to experiment with a unit that blows, or sucks, the steam out with a fan. I think you could have an exhaust pipe dump out underneath the vehicle, or maybe even T-ed into the tailpipe... hey theres an idea, create a venturi-effect with the exhaust gasses of the vehicle to suck air through the dirty tank??? Have to think about that one some more... Also, for a mobile application where mist washing isn't necessarily appropriate (i.e. you don't want to wait for it to settle... what about some sort of agitator (like a little propeller or circulator pump) that mixes water around in the oil really well, then the mixture gets run through the centrifuge multiple times and de-watered...
<1984 Mercedes-Benz 300TD>
Espar Hydronic D5
2 tank, returns to both tanks, backflushing capability
heated dirty tank
holy grail onboard centrifuge
Actually, the external housing should be plenty strong enough to contain the drum in the unlikely event of a fracture. I've worked around alot of machinery that spins larger, heavier components in the 8,000-10,000 rpm neighborhood, with less operator protection than this housing would provide. The outside of this little rotor is probably moving in the neighborhood of under 150 FPS (100 MPH). The housing should be OK containing that.
Unfortunately there has been some exageration of risk posted lately on the various centrifuge posts (with good intentions I'm sure). Not to downplay safety, but lets keep things in perspective...
If it makes you feel safer tho, don't let me discourage you from building a shield around it. Probably help with the sound level too.
I agree, the outer housing on the unit is stout, and the rotor doesn't have that much mass, its not a solid machined block like most other centrifuges. And the distance between the rotor and the outer housing is small. They run them 24 hours a day on many 18 wheelers, and in motion there is probably much more stressing forces applied (gyroscopic forces) it would be interesting to see if any have failed after long usage.
I think we will have some results with nasty oil soon since several others here are buying these. I don't have a nasty oil source, always avoided them like the plague.
Thats almost exactly what I used. A parabolic concentrator is a mirror that focuses on a black pipe basically. In an insulated box with double pane glass on top.
That may not work because as you evap you are just concentrating the stuff you want to get out with the mistwash. Unless the acids and sugars go with the water as it is atomized, would be worth devising a test to see. Heres a test: add some acid to the oil like vinegar, then spin evap it, then do a mistwash and see if the water from the oil is still acid.
On the road you wouldn't have to settle for long, a good plan may be mistwash in the afternoon, settle overnight, drain water, then process with the SunWizard rig while on the road the next day. Thats basically what I did for my test, and I didn't even drain all the visible water as a test.
I don't think a group buy will save us much, he said when I talked to him this is much cheaper than he usually sells them for. And now I went and told everyone here the price I paid, he kind of has to keep selling them to us very close to quantity dealer cost Just tell him you want the SunWizard price.
I would recommend buying the mount, its very well made and handy for either mount on a barrel or on a pipe. Unless you just like all the welding and drilling and painting to save about $20 since you still would need to buy the raw metals, welding rods, etc.
The guy indicated to me that he would sell 2x OC-20 to me for $220 each shipped. May have better discount for volume buy. I'm thinking of 1 or 2 for myself, but either Wizard or I could bring it up. He actually cited to me this thread so he is probably aware of the discussion that might be going on in this thread. I'll try to mention a group buy when I call him about answers to my question on Monday.
Also, played tennis with my Chemical Engineering buddy today, and he indicated that the "Analystical Chemistry" dept of your university will be able to do an analysis of your WVO's content. He says that if you know a friend in that dept, he might be able to do it for free. Bummer, I don't have a friend in that dept at the university here. I'll check around some more.
I think the bigger unit will not dewater any faster, may even be slower with the bigger orifices, and faster flow rates meaning harder to heat up high enough. Maybe Dana or someone will test the larger one out side by side with the small one on the same oil, that would be the best test. The big one would filter out larger volumes of oil quicker so might be good for fleet use. 1 gpm is good enough for me and probably most of us.
Found amongst my junk a PS pump for the project, should work fine and be easy to find. It's an 80's chevy P/U PS pump, with an external reservoir. Alot of Chevys use a similar configuration, and the hose for the external reservoir is large, about 1" (edit; 3/4" hose works fine). Should give good flow to the pumps inlet.
Just have to figure out what size drive pulley to get the 90 psi at the required flow rate.
Be careful if its too big which a P/U pump may be. Might need to size the pulleys to run it much slower than mine which I estimate to be around 1300rpm at the pump. And you can't go much smaller on the motor pulley size, while going bigger on the PS pump is a pain since they are not as standard of pulleys. The way I tested was to run it open flow to confirm it was about 1.5 gpm since thats the flow that with most pumps drops to .9 or so at 90psi. And to compare, the inlet on my pump was 0.5"
Thanks, I'll mock it up first with a pressure gauge and valve. Also pick up several pulley sizes at grainger monday. I'm sure it's high flow as the vehicle had PS and hydroboost brakes. May have to loop some of the output back to the inlet.
Why estimate when you can calculate?
I went and measured my pulleys for you. Motor=2.5" Pump=4.125" OD pulley (edit- I switched to a 2" motor pulley since I was getting slightly too high pressure after the oil gets above 150 F.)
motor=1725rpm, makes the pump= 1045rpmThis message has been edited. Last edited by: SunWizard,
Heh heh. Actually you need to measure from the outer diameter of the belt on each for actual.
Just remembered my motor is a 1/3 hp with a 1/2" shaft. I can get as small as 1 1/2", which with my 5 1/2" PS pulley gets me down under 500 rpm depending on how high the belt rides.
Grainger (if you have an account) has some adjustable diameter pulleys on page 247, on the web catalog.
And the reason I say be careful is these pumps can do 1000 psi easily. And the orifices can only flow 1gpm max, so flow is the key. Put more flow into it you get much higher pressure. That will pop something somewhere, I popped the O-ring in the rotor with cold oil, but at least it wasn't damaged, it just releases the pressure inside, doesn't spin and you have to open it up to put the o-ring back in.
You could use a sprayer pressure regulator (someone said only $10 at farm stores) which returns excess to the source, but I didn't, why waste the electricity to pump extra oil?
On mine the belt sits almost flush with OD of both pulley, about 1/16 bigger on each side so I fudged. Plus it was dark and did it by flashlight.
Wouldn't be a bad idea to use as a safety in case something clogs. Set for maybe 100 psi.
Cheap relief valve if you have a grainger account. I used one as a safety in my WVO setup for awhile. Was exposed to Bio too.
WOW - 2 pages of posts overnight - Impressive..
Any of the power steering pumps should already have a bypass type pressure regulator built into them, You can hear it open when you lock the wheels to one side or the other, it is likely set to the upper pressure limit of the pump but it should be possible to simply replace the spring and set it for 90 pounds, as long as the pumps RPM's is high enough to supply the required flowrate any excess flow of oil will simply be circulated inside the pump, this will add some undetermined amount of heat to the oil but not enough to be concerned with pump reliability.
I have done some "RPM-VS-motor amps" testing using the 12 volt DC motor turning the suntec pump on my FE, once the pressure bypass opens I don't see any appreciable increase in amps drawn by the motor other than the small amount needed to turn the motor faster so there doesn't seem to be much of an added electricity cost to spinning the pump above the equired flowrate RPM,s.
Water washing -- I don't mist wash, I simply stir an equivelent of 10% of the oil in as water, no electricity or pumping needed, this takes more time than misting but I just add more settling barrels at staggered intervals. It will take about a week for the oil/water to completely seperate but you end up with VERY clean oil even from extremely dirty oil. You will need to let the water seperate from the oil and then filter/flash only the oil, flashing the emulsion defeats the purpose of the washing as you still have the acids going through the unit only they are now in the water instead of the oil.
The oil from the settled water-wash would absolutely be clean enough to feed the spinner unit directly and not cause it to have to be cleaned all that often. The water washed oil looks perfectly clean to the unaded eye and I get well over 500 gallons through one set of 5 micron filters, prior to water-washing I had to change filters every 50-75 gallons of oil that had even been prefiltered through nylon stockings.
300 deg f -- Yes, this is probably way more heat than is nescicary to dewater most oil, depends on the amount of water in the oil, more water requires more energy to flash it off as steam, this energy comes mostly from the heat stored in the oil itself.
Refering to temperature is a bit misleading, what you really need is excess HEAT, the easiest way to supply this excess heat is to push up the temp, otherwise you have to somehow continuously moniter the temp of the oil exiting the orifice and use a huge instantly-responding heater of some sort to add the required amount of heat just prior to the oil exiting the orifice. -or- dewater the oil in several passes.
!20 degree flashing -- Don't understand this myself ? I see it in my unit also so I know it happens but I don't know where the energy is coming from, sure seems like you would need something more than 212 deg f ? Maybe it IS a function of a high-speed jet of oil exiting an orifice causing a reduced pressure zone, this is the only explination I can think of. Don't know how a larger diameter (higher flowrate) orifice would effect this phenominon (if there realy is one).
Oil vapor exiting along with the steam -- I strongly suspect this is the case with the spinner, it sure is/was with my FE. Until I added the oil vapor condensing tank to my FE I could count on having to clean my truck windows with a good window cleaner as the oil mist would condense on them and everything else within a half block. Luckily my neighbors never figured out why there winshield wipers were smearing up the windshield, not a problem any more with the condensing tank.
Dumping a mobile units water/oil vapor overboard while driving will likely smear up the windshield of any close following vehicles as well as oil up the rear of your own vehicle.