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Dieselcraft centrifuge works great -My filter and dewater rig
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quote:
Originally posted by JOAT:
I haven't seen it up close, but assume the jets that drive the centrifuge are right by where the oil exits. Normally they would be submerged in engine oil being piped back to the engine. However, in this app, since they eject more or less directly to the atmosphere, perhaps there is an extreme low pressure point occuring as they exit the fast spinning nozzle, allowing the water to boil off at a low temp as though in a partial vacuum?


Yes the jets are about 1-2" from where the oil exits through a threaded 1" pipe fitting. Check the exploded diagram here: http://www.dieselcraft.com/productinfo_OC_1.html

It doesn't show the mount, this auction shows the bracket: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte...ame=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
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Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thinking a little more on the partial vacuum as the fuid leaves the nozzles theory last night. Some additional factors too related to the nozzels spinning in air. Since there is no fluid friction due to air in the exit area, the centrifuge is likely spinning at a much higher RPM than rated (or do they dump into air in truck apps???). Wonder if this is part of the reason for the noise SunWizard noticed.

-So, we have the possible drop of pressure to below atmospheric as the oil leaves the nozzles.
-We have the centrifuge and nozzles spinning (maybe faster than normal), creating a pressure drop as air is displaced. Both factors would allow for lower boiling temps.
Add to that the extreme agitation of exiting the nozzles, would that allow for easier boiling?

Very interesting. Good thing this is dumping directly into the barrel. If it had been plumbed to pipe the outlet somewhere, this dewatering effect may not have been discovered.

Exactly which model do you have? Was it a clearance item? The ones he curently has on Ebay are over $400
 
Location: The West Coast | Registered: March 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JOAT:
Thinking a little more on the partial vacuum as the fuid leaves the nozzles theory last night. Some additional factors too related to the nozzels spinning in air. Since there is no fluid friction due to air in the exit area, the centrifuge is likely spinning at a much higher RPM than rated (or do they dump into air in truck apps???). Wonder if this is part of the reason for the noise SunWizard noticed.

-So, we have the possible drop of pressure to below atmospheric as the oil leaves the nozzles.
-We have the centrifuge and nozzles spinning (maybe faster than normal), creating a pressure drop as air is displaced. Both factors would allow for lower boiling temps.
Add to that the extreme agitation of exiting the nozzles, would that allow for easier boiling?

Very interesting. Good thing this is dumping directly into the barrel. If it had been plumbed to pipe the outlet somewhere, this dewatering effect may not have been discovered.

Exactly which model do you have? Was it a clearance item? The ones he curently has on Ebay are over $400


Mine is the smaller one OC-20, the one on ebay is the larger OC-50 for 2x the price. It wasn't a clearance but was a good deal, he had the "make an offer" option and I did that.

The manufacturer of them contacted me about this since they are getting so much interest from here. I told him if you make a unit that heats the oil to 120F, and pumps through the centrifuge, and the price is right the WVO world could be very interested. I mentioned he should put up another ebay auction for this model and he said he was waiting for mounting brackets to arrive next week.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
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Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JOAT:
Since there is no fluid friction due to air in the exit area, the centrifuge is likely spinning at a much higher RPM than rated (or do they dump into air in truck apps???).


They dump into air in truck apps too since the outlet is a 1" pipe and the input flow fits through a 3/8" pipe. So I think the RPM is the same, although the added viscosity could be changing that.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
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Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So the obvious next step is to make this a mobile "holy grail" unit. Put a 12vdc motor on it, or put the power steering pump on a belt on the engine, run through a coolant heated FPHE, and into the centrifuge. The trick to figure out there would be how to get the steam out, because you don't want an open tank sloshing in your vehicle. Maybe output into a small chamber like Tim's FE with a fan blowing it up and out, and the WVO drips out the bottom. Or output into a cross fitting with a small fan blowing air across right at the centrifuge output. The hard part would be not condensing the steam again in the chamber,especially at the lower temp of 120F at which this can still produce steam (or maybe I should call it atomized water?.) And you probably don't want that steam leaving a fine coating of oil in your vehicle either, so a fan to another chamber seems best.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
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Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Would be nice to condense some of the vapors off too and see if any atomized oil is in it. Could get real messy in a mobile app if oily stuff was condensing in the back of your truck Big Grin

Also I still am not totally convinced the washing step is needed (no offense, Dana). After all any concentrated residue left after dewatering may well be removed by the filter, or additional Centrifuge passes. Doesn't hurt to wash, but until I see specific oil analysis both ways, it's just speculation...
 
Location: The West Coast | Registered: March 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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"Naysayer" (the voice of caution) here....
I agree this appears to have some very good potential...but before you assume that this initial testing is completely succsessful you may want to do a bit more research.

Personally I am hoping that this pans out as well as you believe it will. It looks very promising at this point. But I have found that initial testing may not return the same results than later more thorough testing does.

Again I hope this does work out.
It seems that it would provide a much lower cost and safer method of large scale wvo processing than the process I currently use if it does.

quote:
Originally posted by SunWizard:
So the obvious next step is to make this a mobile "holy grail" unit. Put a 12vdc motor on it, or put the power steering pump on a belt on the engine, run through a coolant heated FPHE, and into the centrifuge. The trick to figure out there would be how to get the steam out, maybe output into a small chamber like Tim's FE with a fan blowing it up and out, and the WVO drips out the bottom. The hard part would be not condensing the steam again in the chamber,especially at the lower temp of 120F at which this can still produce steam (or maybe I should call it atomized water?.)
 
Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: November 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by danalinscott:
"Naysayer" (the voice of caution) here....
I agree this appears to have some very good potential...but before you assume that this initial testing is completely succsessful you may want to do a bit more research.


I'm sure once more are available in the $200 range I and many others will be testing it (how about you, Dana Wink). I am still building a conventional centrifuge to test too, since I have the parts, but something cheap and off the shelf is always good to have considering making one is not in everyones skill level.
 
Location: The West Coast | Registered: March 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wizard and Folks,

I wonder if it might be good to invest a little more and buy the bigger OC-50 unit? Faster dewatering? Although may need a even bigger heat source due to faster fuel flow? Opinions?

This is sooooooo... exciting. I'm installing mine directly into my mobile dewatering unit. Wizard's testing is promising enough for me. Just circulate the oil many times for total dewatering even if the first pass does not remove all of it.

JOAT, I agree with you about the washing step. It may not be necessary. Until we see an official study or oil analysis. All of it is just speculation. I will build mine and pay for an oil analysis before and after passing it thru the Dieselcraft. Do you know where I can have this oil analysis done? (for WVO not for Engine Oil. Or is it the same place?)
 
Location: KTown - Itch Capital of the World | Registered: June 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JOAT:
quote:
Originally posted by danalinscott:
"Naysayer" (the voice of caution) here....
I agree this appears to have some very good potential...but before you assume that this initial testing is completely succsessful you may want to do a bit more research.


I'm sure once more are available in the $200 range I and many others will be testing it (how about you, Dana Wink). I am still building a conventional centrifuge to test too, since I have the parts, but something cheap and off the shelf is always good to have considering making one is not in everyones skill level.


I contacted the guy last week with some questions. He asked me to wait 1 day while he consulted Engineering. I haven't had the chance to call him back but he did say that he had a long long answer for me which was too long to write in an email. Among the questions I asked where:

1. Will it work with 300*F WVO? I was thinking for more effective dewatering.
2. Will it work with 150 psi.
3. Will it work with 5 GPH flow instead of 50 GPH.
4. Price if I buy more than one. He said $220 each delivered if I buy 2 OC-20. $450 for OC-50 delivered for 1 unit.

I will call him Monday and get some definitive answers.

Folks, I was thinking. With 150 psi from an oil burner pump. Wrap the tubing around the exhaust. Pump WVO at 150 psi and 50 gph thru that exhaust tubing, you should be able to get oil hot enough or very close to 300*F or more. If not, supplement it with coolant heat and electric heat. There's got to be enough heat from all those 3 sources to flash in one pass even at 5 gph, opinions Tim??? Like Tim said, get the WVO hot enough and you should be able to flash dry it in one pass at your flow rate. correct Tim?
 
Location: KTown - Itch Capital of the World | Registered: June 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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before you pay for your oil analysis:


titrate and record your average semi gunky wet oil then run thru the spinner for whatever you consider a reasonable time frame.

Then:

1) do a pan test... this will tell you if the water is gone. assuming it is...

2) mist wash a large (10 liters) sample with a small (1 liter) amount of water. titrate the oil before and after the wash and check the PH of the wash water before and after the wash.

you should be able extrapolate some reasonable numbers at home.

like total failure would be obvious.

just a thought or theory on testing... for cheap


Though your argument is very clever, I don't think it will lead to the results you desire. gandhi
 
Location: iowa | Registered: December 19, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
JOAT, I agree with you about the washing step. It may not be necessary. Until we see an official study or oil analysis. All of it is just speculation. I will build mine and pay for an oil analysis before and after passing it thru the Dieselcraft. Do you know where I can have this oil analysis done? (for WVO not for Engine Oil. Or is it the same place?)


It's not really the same kind of analysis as an engine oil analysis. Unfortunately the expense would be high, unless you could get a university interested.

What we would need is a full lab analysis, including a breakdown of all compounds present. Then each compound could be evaluated for it's effects on engine components, as well as effect if it were to get into engine oil.

I would tend to speculate that you would find minimal effects at the levels likely to be found, but at a minimum sodium and acids would certainly reduce engine oil life. There is always potential for increased corrosion or cavitation risk. Also upper cylinder wear and deposit issues are a factor.

Of course variations in engine and fuel system type, and condition, would affect how a given engine would be affected. Also variations in source oil.

Water washing may or may not help, but with lack of complete data, it may be a good precaution. Then again it may dissolve substances out of the solids in the oil that would otherwise be removed by filtering or centrifuging. So to be really safe, you'd want to centrifuge or filter, then water wash, then centrifuge/filter again.

Wish I knew if it were really worth the extra time, energy, and use of water. But based on success of the number of people not taking these steps, it may not be justified on a cost basis. For example, speculate a 10% reduction in life of $3000 worth of engine components over 50,000 miles. Would it be worth the additional pre-filter cost if you had to spend the $$$ at 45,000 miles instead of 50,000? 40,000 miles?
 
Location: The West Coast | Registered: March 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by JojoJaro:
1. Will it work with 300*F WVO? I was thinking for more effective dewatering.
2. Will it work with 150 psi.
3. Will it work with 5 GPH flow instead of 50 GPH.

Folks, I was thinking. With 150 psi from an oil burner pump. Wrap the tubing around the exhaust.


1. I don't think you need 300F it removes just as well at below 160F, easy to get with a FPHE. I don't think the oring in there will last long at 300 F. Exhaust may be a bad idea it can get way too hot polymerizing the oil. And it could be too cold sometimes too, which means the filter won't work right. Coolant is well regulated at 180 or so, perfect temps.
2. No, max is 90 psi, I blew the oring out of the rotor at higher.
3. It needs .9gpm or very close. 5gph is not even close, you won't get the rpms. Oil burner pump is way too low of flow.

Another trick in a mobile (enclosed) unit will be to see the puffs of steam coming off to know if its dewatered.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by JOAT:
Water washing may or may not help, but with lack of complete data, it may be a good precaution.


This unit doesn't do water washing, please start another thread to discuss that. I think that debate could go on and on, and get contentious, and probably already has many times. I think for some oil you really need it, others you don't, and its hard to tell which unless you run a test on a smaller portion of a large batch. And the tests needed even if we knew what to look for probably cost alot more than to just mistwash it all. I bet that last sentence makes Dana smile Smile


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by danalinscott:
"Naysayer" (the voice of caution) here....
I agree this appears to have some very good potential...but before you assume that this initial testing is completely succsessful you may want to do a bit more research.


Other people making this rig and reporting back how its working is the best added research we can get here. And this group is a mostly experimenters who will share info (except for all those vendors who think you will make big bucks off this and don't share info freely.)

If you have any ideas of any additional tests I should run let me know. I will be using this on all my oil. Anyone in the area who wants to bring their oil over and give it a run, let me know I will do it for you.

Here is one thing I forsee looking into my wizardly crystal ball, its very low humidity here in CO, and the dewater part may not work in high humidity unless you get the temp way up.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SunWizard:
quote:
Originally posted by JojoJaro:
1. Will it work with 300*F WVO? I was thinking for more effective dewatering.
2. Will it work with 150 psi.
3. Will it work with 5 GPH flow instead of 50 GPH.

Folks, I was thinking. With 150 psi from an oil burner pump. Wrap the tubing around the exhaust.


1. I don't think you need 300F it removes just as well at below 160F, easy to get with a FPHE. I don't think the oring in there will last long at 300 F. Exhaust may be a bad idea it can get way too hot polymerizing the oil. And it could be too cold sometimes too, which means the filter won't work right. Coolant is well regulated at 180 or so, perfect temps.
2. No, max is 90 psi, I blew the oring out of the rotor at higher.
3. It needs .9gpm or very close. 5gph is not even close, you won't get the rpms. Oil burner pump is way too low of flow.

Another trick in a mobile (enclosed) unit will be to see the puffs of steam coming off to know if its dewatered.


Wizard, I think you are right, but what the heck, the guy gave me his number, its a free phone call. Maybe their engineering dept has some better o-rings and something. We'll see. I suspect he'll just probably tell me what you already told me.

Phil (ChariotDriver) gave me some ideas on using an indirect heat exchanger so that WVO does not need to get heat from the exhaust directly. I just need to find a fluid that will not burn at the 800-1300*F temps we sometimes see in the exhaust manifold. Any ideas? 100% coolant antifreeze? Don't really know if its worth the extra hassle. But in the winter time, this may be the only way you can get enough heat. Coolant heat may not be enough for your cab heating and the FPHE for this and the FPHE for your WVO Final heat exchanger.

On Vinny, I have what is known as a Fuel-fired heater. It burns diesel to quickly heat the coolant to quickly heat the interior of my van. Anyone worked with this? Wouldn't this be a good alternative to supply heat? I haven't seen it but I think it is just a small unit. I'll do some research.

JOAT,

Hmmm .... University for WVO analysis? I have some PHd buddies at the University of Tennessee, Dept of Chemical Engineering. Will they have something that can do this? I was thinking maybe more in the realm of Chemistry or Organic Chemistry, not Chemical Engineering Dept. I'll check around. As for the effects on the engine of the compounds found, I think we may be on our own with that. I doubt Chemists would know, and since nobody really has done an extensive study, I doubt my Mechanical Engineering buddies would know. (Come to think about it, I might be able to get some of my Mechanical Engineering buddies to make WVO fuels as their primary field of study. Interesting.)

Personally, I think you're right about ROI of all the prewashing stuff. I think the levels and concentration that we are talking about for these compounds may not be worth the hassle. (Remember these are the very same compounds in you digestive system right now from the food you eat cooked with these WVO.) Your time is indeed equivalent to money. Does it have an effect, most likely. Will it shorten the life of the engine significantly (more than 5%), probably won't matter in the long run, like you said. After 300,000 miles. Everything around the engine would fall apart and the value of the car may not be worth it at that point. But for the sake of WVO research, I'll check around.
 
Location: KTown - Itch Capital of the World | Registered: June 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not sure if my input or questions are welcome. Please let me know if they are not.
In my experience...

It is very wise to not exceed the temp or pessure specs of any component. I suggest staying within those the manufacturer provides for the filter unit.

By mistwashing first the majority of particulates are removed as well as the water soluble ones. This should result in a dramatic reduction in the need to dissasemble and clean the filter.

No public facility that I know of offers wvo testing for water content. When carefully conducted the Hot Pan Test will reveal even low levels of suspended water. however even carefully conduted Hot Pan Tests should probably be performed more than once before the results can be considered completley reliable.

None of this is intended to be insulting. I hope none percieve it as that. I sincerely hope (for a varety of reasons) that this testing leads to a new option for processing wvo.
 
Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: November 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by danalinscott:
Not sure if my input or questions are welcome. Please let me know if they are not.
In my experience...


I appreciate any input. One thing that would be interesting to know is from your previous spinner testing, did you heat the WVO first? What kind of pressure and flow did you use, and how long did you run it, and why did you consider it a failure? Maybe that would help us learn the incorrect ways to run this rig, which I am sure there are lots.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
I appreciate any input. One thing that would be interesting to know is from your previous spinner testing, did you heat the WVO first? What kind of pressure and flow did you use, and how long did you run it, and why did you consider it a failure?


My previous testing of the spinner type oil filter showed me it did not provide adequate suspended water removal. I did not heat the wvo to the temperatures you have though and the results you are getting indicate that this may be the key to attaining this.

I initially used the pressure and flow rates suggested by the manufacturer but later attmpeted to find inexpensive fuel pumps that could provide sufficient flow...without much luck. When I costed out the option of using it as a non-mobile prefilter it came out at way more expensive and complicated than several other options I was also testing.

I must admit that I feel a bit foolish for not re-exploring the adaptability to large scale procesing of these units. Although several would be required to take the place of the single centrifuge used by most of my fleet clients for processing the cost of even half a dozen of these (and the pumps/heaters/ etc. your processor uses) woudl still be significantly les expensive. I also prefer to not depend on a single piece of equipment if a redundancy is possible at the same price.

If this tests out to remove water it will make my life much simpler. Please let me know if I can be of any assistance to you as this project progresses.

I would cetainly be more than willing to provide an independent suspended water level test for you if you care to send me samples of wvo taken prior to and after processing.
 
Location: Central MN..Brrrrrr! | Registered: November 06, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am very interested in filtering my WVO this way. Has anyone approached the seller to see if we could get some sort of group discount? If we could get 20 or 30 people to buy a filter, not do it through Ebay so the seller has less fee's. Does someone want to contact the seller to ask if he will give a good price to people who say they are from "infopop"? I would be in for one unit.

Thanks

Peter


1983 Mitsubishi Mighty Max with a modified Greasecar conversion.
 
Location: Stouffville, Ontario | Registered: September 08, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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