I'm pretty frustrated.

I got going again, but still run into a continuing problem of a non-spinning rotor. At first I thought it was due to plugged jets, so I kept having to take the rotor apart, blow air through the jets, put it back together, try again... sometimes I would also take the rotor out and blow hot oil through the spindle with the lid on...

It went on like this, try it, take it apart, clean it out... and that's just to get the thing spinning, without the regular clean outs to clean the oil.

Now I don't know what to do. It's not spinning. I did my usual thing: I made sure the jets are free. I took the rotor out and blew air through the bottom hole and plugged the top with my finger - air comes out of the jets fine. I put my fingers on the holes in the spindle and turn the pump on real fast - likewise is free.

BUT, when I put it all back together the rotor doesn't spin. I take the lid off after running and the rotor is in the same position.

What gives! Can anybody help me? This problem is getting progressively worse after months and months of running. Is it possible the inner rubber ring (on the rotor) lost its seal and there is pressure leaking there (robbing pressure from the jets)? It doesn't seem likely, but I don't know what else it could be???

Sun, is your setup as finicky as mine? Do you have to beg and cajole it to work properly?

Does the rotor spin without the cover on? Like by hand? If not you could you have a bent spindle?

The other thing you could do is find a clear 2 liter coke bottle, cut out the bottom and clamp it over the base with a 4" or so hose clamp and give it some oil and see what happens. What does your psi gauge say? Could it be your pump not giving enough pressure?

My 60 gpm is certainly noticeable louder on spin down now that it's had some 700 gallons through it, but it still seems to work fine.

quote:

???

Veggiecar,

It sounds to me like a spring-and-piston problem. Our CF is not finicky at all. Very occasionally, perhaps once per year, one of the jets becomes clogged and that has been our only problem. However, even with a jet plugged, the rotor will still spin. In our experience, the result of a plugged jet has been to cause a lot of flow through the pressure regulator outlet.

Here are two categories of steps to try and some thoughts:

1. Remove the canister and take off the rotor. Gently add some pressure. Note if the oil is coming through the arbor. If no oil appears, you have found your problem. Did you remove the spring and piston? If not, remove them. You will need to separate the centrifuge as the spring and piston are on the inlet side. If you have doubts or questions, call John at Dieselcraft, or send me a private message.

2. If oil pours from the arbor after removing the canister and rotor, then perhaps the jets are indeed becoming clogged. Do you strain the oil before running? Could you be getting polymerization somewhere along the inlet side and some of the gloops of polymerized oil are creating problems? I would doubt that the seal is leaking, but to be sure, put your finger on the bottom hole of the rotor and blow in the top. Does air come from the jets? If so, plug the jets and blow, no air should be leaking our through the seal.

Let us (me) know if this works out as I would be interested in helping. We do about 5,000 gallons per year with an OC50 and have had the best luck. Someone on the forum (or myself) should be able to diagnose your issue.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by veggiecar300:
Sun, is your setup as finicky as mine? Do you have to beg and cajole it to work properly?

No, not finicky in 3 years, not even clogged jets. I agree with Veggieguy's ideas about the stuck check valve in the base. 2 things I have had happen: check to be sure the top of your rotor isn't bent from overpressure, which makes the bottom oring not seal and it pops out of its groove. And check to be sure your center post isn't loose, its threaded into the cast base.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by veggiecar300:
I'm pretty frustrated.

What gives! Can anybody help me? This problem is getting progressively worse after months and months of running. Is it possible the inner rubber ring (on the rotor) lost its seal and there is pressure leaking there (robbing pressure from the jets)? It doesn't seem likely, but I don't know what else it could be???[QUOTE]

Hi Veggiecar,

Did you get it going? There is something wrong, you shouldn't have to even worry about having to limp it along, it should run each time without having all the trouble just to get it going marginally.

If it isn't something with the mechanics of the CF, which you should be able to tell pert quick, and if you're filtering down to 150 micron into your CF tank, then something is happening after that, like maybe bugs are falling into the oil?

Let us know what you find out.

Sam

Thanks for all of your suggestions. I have been very very impressed with the service and support and quality of the folks at DieselCraft. I do so want this to work better, and since I set up two of my friends' systems with DC they are having no trouble - so I know it CAN work.

I took it all apart again and here's what I found:


That's the heater in there, totally filled with black flaky covering. I found these black bits coming off and plugging the CF. This is after only a few runs. No way should I have to take it apart and clean it out this often.

This is the second time this happened. This was the heater that I replaced before. They look the same:


Here's proof that the black bits are plugging everything:


So, what do you think? For now, I cleaned it all out and put it back together. It's running now, I'm just going to check on it in a minute. BUT, I imagine the same thing will happen again after a few runs.

THEORIES:
1. I am running too hot (?) Although my temp gauge reads only about 140-160 at the inlet of the CF, maybe the heat is too long, too constant?
2. I don't have the same setup that the DC people sell now, since I started this project before the CF came with the valve and pressure gauge. Mine is more like Sun's original idea with the pressure gauge in the line and a pressure relief valve going directly back to a tee in the line before the pump.


I don't at all relish the idea of changing this setup, because I have a lot invested in the custom-cut high-temp, high-pressure hoses... but, if you all are sure that is the problem...

3. When I think to the best time it ran, it was when I first set up the system WITHOUT the water heater element. I was just using a barrel heating blanket/belt. It worked trouble-free then, but I didn't feel like it spun quite as fast or cleaned quite as well as having the heater right before the CF. Maybe I should go back to that anyway, or maybe the heater is too close to the CF... then again, if that heater element is making black flakes, it doesn't matter WHERE it is in the line. The flakes will plug the CF anyway.

4. Could it be that the heating element has a coating on it that has to be removed? This time, rather than replacing the heating element, I just cleaned it off. It stayed black, but now is not shiny at all. Maybe there was a coating there that is now burned off(?)

The long and short of the problem has to be the heater element though. It's really making a mess with that black stuff.

veggiecar300 - Is it possible that you have a 110v water heater element (vs 220v ) which could be too hot - "cooking" the oil ?

:O I've been using 120V 1500W !!

Should be 4500W 220V or 110V 1125W

Is that it? Those 375W make the difference?

Thanks!

I think that is it . Replace it with a 4500W (max) 220v water heater element . On 110v you get the lower wattage and the maximum temperature of the (220v) element will be much lower than that of 110v element you were using . You could use 2 elements for more heat as SunWizard mentions at the beginning of this thread .

BTW- Replace those galvanized fittings with black pipe . Clean the inline heater pipe with Purple Power cleaner or oven cleaner , rinse thoroughly and dry before putting it back together .

QUOTE]Originally posted by veggiecar300:
:O I've been using 120V 1500W !!

Should be 4500W 220V or 110V 1125W

Is that it? Those 375W make the difference?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rkpatt,

Veggiecar,

Here are our thoughts and experience:

1. We run the CF to 220 degrees Fahrenheit each run for about a half-hour and then turn off the series of four heaters. With six heaters in the system and four in play at any one time, we have had some experience with 5500 watt 220 volt heaters running on 110. (Many thanks to Sun for the idea of using this type of heater and for the setup in general.) The oil continues for another six hours in a pretty well insulted environment and ends at a temp of 160 degrees. We have no problems such as you have described, so I don't think that temperature is an issue.

2. We have seen the same internal kind of glop and flakes that you have found in your setup. Ours may be worse. These aglomerations, for lack of a better term, must not be uncommon. Though historically we have had no problem with oil flow at all, what we have done last month is to put a strainer in line just after the CF barrel outlet. We had to use a cast iron strainer, http://www.plumbersurplus.com/...-Strainers/246/List, because of the high temps that we run. The strainer has a 80 mesh screen. (If you are below 160 degrees then I think that a Banjo strainer would work. These have greater range of mesh sizes and are less expensive.)

3. All of our heaters, Mercoid controls, strainer, etc. is on the inlet side of the Oberdorfer pump that we use. Therefore, they are not subjected to high pressures. I don't see how this could change the dynamics of the aglomerating, but the idea may make it easier to add, exchange, or modify components to your system.

4. Last thought. We tried an experiment which was to put a length of black iron in hot circulating oil with no light and no air. I still have the pipe whose exterior looks "bearded" with a thorough covering of these black flakes. Our thought is that each material which we have had in contact in some way or another with veggie oil - bronze, galvanized, and black iron create different types of aglomerations in the CF environment. And that these are unavoidable. We just try to be sure that they get contained and do not end up in the final product.

Hope that this helps at least a bit.

Michael

veggiecar300, you are burning the oil and generating the black flakes because you have too high a heat density with that heater element (how hot the element gets per unit area). One look at the pic of your element tells all. It is so short with little surface area and your are running it at 110 volts at its max! Look for a 220 V element with the wrap around type that has lot's of surface area and run it on 110 v for a lower heat density. You may need more than one to get the temp you need. Never apply power to the elements unless oil is moving.

Interesting stuff. I'll change elements and run it for shorter time, also use the barrel heater blanket.

I also like the idea of adding a strainer like those mentioned. Since my only experience in plumbing is building this rig, can someone tell me how those work? What's the Y for? Are they easily cleaned out (without taking the whole fitting out)?

Also... "Look for a 220 V element with the wrap around type that has lot's of surface area and run it on 110 v for a lower heat density."

What is a "wrap around type?"

Is everybody else's heater before the pump?

Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by veggiecar300:
Interesting stuff. I'll change elements and run it for shorter time, also use the barrel heater blanket.

I also like the idea of adding a strainer like those mentioned. Since my only experience in plumbing is building this rig, can someone tell me how those work? What's the Y for? Are they easily cleaned out (without taking the whole fitting out)?

Also... "Look for a 220 V element with the wrap around type that has lot's of surface area and run it on 110 v for a lower heat density."

What is a "wrap around type?"

Is everybody else's heater before the pump?

Thanks again.

Use unions if you want to be able to take it apart for cleaning. Go to Home Depot or Lowews and buy the lifetime warranty elements. They are the most expensive ones and are the wrap around type with lots of surface area. I believe you can run them in free air and they will not burn out because they have so much surface area and thus low heat density.

You want the pump before the heater, and heater as close as possible to the CF inlet so you do not lose heat.

quote:

Originally posted by canolafunola:

Use unions if you want to be able to take it apart for cleaning.

You want the pump before the heater, and heater as close as possible to the CF inlet so you do not lose heat.

Great! Thanks! What are "unions"? Sorry, I'm a newb. Can you give me a link?

These don't come apart for cleaning? http://www.plumbersurplus.com/...-Strainers/246/List,

I use a 4500W LONG heater on 110V and heat to 160F. This single heater always has oil moving over it so it doesn't burn anything. Haven't had to replace it in over a year (possibly 2).

quote:

Originally posted by veggiecar300:
:O I've been using 120V 1500W !!

Should be 4500W 220V or 110V 1125W

Is that it? Those 375W make the difference?

Yes its your elements. Use a 4500w 220v element run at 110v as I describe in post 1 of this thread (and repeated throughout) will solve the problem, because its a much longer element with lower wattage (1125w) than yours. From my 1st post:
"This goes into a 4500w 220v water heater element run at 110v (=1125w) in a tee in the bottom of the 1.25" vertical pipe. They are longer than an similar wattage 110v element, which means lower watt density, which means less chance of thermal polymerization (burning) of the VO. "

The wrap around style are even longer for the same watts but the extra cost of them isn't needed since the 4500 ones work flawlessly and are cheaper. ($7 instead of $20)

Also, be sure to only turn on the heaters when the pump is running to avoid burning the VO.

I definitely only turn it on when oil is running. My heater is horizontal.

So far so good, I am only heating for a half hour or so to bring temp up. It's hot out anyway, so there isn't a lot of heat lost for now.

BUT, I will put in the long heaters that Sun recommends. I'll have to do some redesigning though. I'm not sure how I can do it without totally starting over. Maybe I'll try using the heater I have with a blanket heater and turning off sooner... it seems like some of you are successful with that setup (?)

I'd like to check out a strainer too.

veggiecar300 -

example of a union - http://doitbest.com/Union-B+K+...tbest-sku-422932.dib


Mounting the heater vertically will prevent trapped air in the heater assembly. It is important that the element is completely immersed when on . Re-mount the heater in a vertical position .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by veggiecar300:
Interesting stuff. I'll change elements and run it for shorter time, also use the barrel heater blanket.

I also like the idea of adding a strainer like those mentioned. Since my only experience in plumbing is building this rig, can someone tell me how those work? What's the Y for? Are they easily cleaned out (without taking the whole fitting out)?

Veggiecar,

I think that all of the advice given is sound. I will differ with some pretty heavy hitters and say that it has not been our experience that you can completely avoid getting flakes by lowering temperature, changing elements, or changing pipe materials. In the experiment we tried, the black iron pipe just sat in the warm oil with no heater nearby and it developed flakes.

An in line strainer is easy to clean. On the Banjo brand there is a nut to open on the bottom to drain the oil before unscrewing the cannister to remove the stainless element. The element can be washed with soap and water in a few minutes. "Y" strainers are differently configured than "T" strainers - teh "Y" has an advantage of letting the oil flow thrugh a bit easier as the oil does not have to turn 90 degrees.

Best of luck.

Thanks Sun and everybody that has posted to this thread with so much valuable information.


I bought an ff60 about a year ago and still have not set it up, but will very soon. I also recently purchased (used) an oc50 along with an oberdorfer gear pump. I assembled this over the weekend with an inline heater using 2 4500 watt 220 volt heating elements, and used high pressure hydraulic hose throughout.

It seems to be working great.

I have been cleaning up around the shop lately and consolidating my settled wvo into totes. I put the questionable wvo from the bottom of the settling drums into a single drum and heated and settled twice before transferring the top 2/3 into the centrifuge drum. I thought that the first run should be with the worst oil that I have and now after about 4 hours running through the centrifuge I believe it is cleaner than my settled oil and will be going to do a hot pan test in a little while. I don't expect to find any water present because of the steam being released during the first couple of hours. I was getting an "oil fog" in the drum during the last hour of running.

The only possible problem I have is locating the proper line-up markings. There are a couple of straight scratches on the bowl that look very similar, and a line next to some engraved numbers. I have been lining it up on the mark that seems to give the least amount of vibration and quiet operation, but it will start making a humming/vibrating noise at times. I found that tightening the wing nut a little more helps with this but does not completely eliminate it. Also a light tap with my fingers will get it running quiet for a while. Any suggestions?


Thanks,

David