Sponsors Home Forums General SVO Discussion Dieselcraft centrifuge works great -My filter and dewater rig
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LOL good description of the process I had to do to design this rig. Its not quite that complicated now that I have posted all the specs so you wouldn't have to do it from scratch, a 1725rpm motor, 2" pulley, to a power steering pump with a 4.25" pulley. (or a gear pump with 1gpm flow at 90psi at whatever speed you want - the makers usually give a chart.) 1/2" wide belts are standard. So the DIY types here can do it without too much trial and error. But I agree that most don't want to do that experimenting, and will buy something off the shelf that they know works, and spend a little more to do that. YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum 95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD wagon Running on 2 tank WVO, 81 Mercedes 300D on V80/D20 blend Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated. |
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We have gatherd most of the pump specs from our chosen manufacturer. We are awaiting the factory distributor to supply us a quotation that we can pass on to forum memembers. By weeks end will have pump, motor and supplier data for all.
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A major development to report today. This rig does remove suspended water as a true centrifuge! (but it keeps it in the rotor) With only a simple change to how you operate it: you must capture all the output right after turning off the pump. Several times half the rotor contents were dirty water! (even while the output was close to passing the pan test) It will remove and collect up to 4 oz. water each time you do this. This makes for very fast dewatering, and may solve the issue of requiring a mistwash beforehand which has been discussed so much.
I ran tests today which are getting sent to the lab for testing. I started with 12 gallons right from the dumpster, and on purpose sucked up some crud from the bottom of the barrel. And then I added 1/4 cup vinegar to make sure we got lots of acid, and then I sucked up a thick emulsion layer in an old settling barrel that wouldn't seperate after about a month of heat & settle. These are all things I would normally avoid but I was going for bad conditions. Then I ran it through all the rig without the centrifuge circulating it well and suspending it all in a nice mess. Saved a gallon of this for testing labeled #1. Saved 5 gallons of #1 to process later below. This was dangerous to do a pan test on it pops so bad. And the water/acid is suspended, it hasn't settled out after 12 hours of heat & settle. Ran the centrifuge only (no mistwash) for 4 passes on 5 gallons of this mess. Labeled as sample #2. The rotor captured about 2 oz. water with acid PH. And removed lots of black goo. It removed all traces of water in the pan test. Then cleaned out the rig, and pumped into it and heated the other 5 gallons I had saved of #1 to 120F, and did a mistwash with a mistpro nozzle, adding about 1 gallon of water. Then I ran the rig without the centrifuge for about 15 minutes, which turned this into and even worse emulsion looking like chocolate milk, and also really washed it. Then I let this settle only for about 30 minutes, and drained the free water from the bottom which looked like white milk, and had acid PH. There was still a large amount of water suspended and on the walls of the barrel. Then ran the rig for 6 passes on this mess. Lots of steam puffing out, and when I stopped midway 2 times, the rotor contained 4 oz. of free water which I captured the output when I turned it off. And about the same amount of black goo. Tested water free with the pan test, labeled samples as #3. This is some very interesting results which leads to a new way to run this where you could remove the water much faster which I will test next time: Run 1 pass, empty the rotor of water, repeat until no more steam puffs which in every case has been a simple and accurate indicator that it will pass the pan test. This also means with any version of this you should make provisions to capture the output of the rotor right when you turn it off. The output of the rotor at that time is often very dirty besides containing water (if there was suspended or free water.) Operating like this could lead to the holy grail - an at home and mobile version that doesn't require a mistwash. YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum 95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD wagon Running on 2 tank WVO, 81 Mercedes 300D on V80/D20 blend Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated. |
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Suspended water and an emulsion are two different things.
An emulsion may remain emulsified for a long time...but this similarity does nto make it suspended water. I commend you for continueing testing but some of the conclusions you are drawing appear to be flawed. I agree it may be possible to avoid the neccesity for a mistwash. But without thorough and repeatable testing this will not be known for certain. If Dieselcraft is considering developing a prefiltering/dewatering unit I stongly suggest that they do so through a standard R&D process. What is being learned not may provide a good base for that program. Dana दान danalinscott@yahoo.com http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/ VegOil Conversions by Dana Linscott- VO Conversion Consultation for large and small trucks, VO fuel related businesses, and co-generation(power/heat)projects, |
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I agree. The oil I used (#1) is not an emulsion, it is clear dark golden, has water that shows in a pan test, and it doesn't settle out after 12 hours of heated settling. Does that meet your definition of suspended water? The emulsion I mentioned was formed after mistwashing and then running through the pump with a large amount of water, and yes that is obviously very different since its so milky. I mentioned that since it removed water of both types. YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum 95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD wagon Running on 2 tank WVO, 81 Mercedes 300D on V80/D20 blend Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated. |
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I've been following this post a while now and I think you and Joat are doing a fine job of objectivly testing your rigs... and presenting the information in a fair and unbiased manner... If you'd listened to some of the more negative folks on the forum you may have never even tried making it... As you now well know... the power of a centrifuge is a really usefull cleaning and separating tool...
If it was more fun everyone would be doing it! |
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WOOOW... Wizard, your continued positive results is outstanding. First, you've proven that it dewaters, now you've proven that it removes suspended water like a true centrifuge. This nifty device is truly turning out to be the holy grail. Great job in testing and many many thanks for sharing your results. (Thanks to JOAT also.) (I hope this serves as as an object lesson for everybody not to take the word of the so called self proclaimed expert. If he had tested like he should have, he would have arrived at the same results as you have.) |
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yeah thanks from here too. Some good stuff you guy's are doing. JoJo "proven" is little to strong here but the odds are looking mighty good. OK- Jumping up on my soap box! Very good lesson you produce here JoJo. In saying this I'm going against one lesson I learned from my Marine Corp leadership education. That lesson is "Reprimand in Private- Praise in Public". This may well bite me in the a$$ buttttttt... here goes... The lesson you just taught us JoJo is that your an absolute spoiled litte A$$ who raises his ego by blasting others. The comments above where un-provoked and absolutely unnessisary but to booster your own ego by attempting to lower someone elses. How unbeleivable childish! FWIW, I'm not real happy with Dana lately either. I'm sure others are not as well. I've called him on it a few times in a subtle but effective manner for OUR sake on the board. Did it NOT for boosting my ego, did it NOT to show I have some kind of power...or someother shiat like that but did it for bettering things for EVERYONE including Dana. THAT is the lesson you need to get JoJo! It aint all about YOU! Now in all fairness... after repremanding JoJo.. Dana, I do have to say something to you too even though your last responce in here was well said and not in the over reaction catagory. Stil it needs to be brought up so might as well do it here to balance out this post. In all truth I'm actually a little worried about you Dana, this last year has not been typical for you. I think we can all agree that you have produced your own share of "over reactions" . Not sure where this is coming from. JoJo, and a few rare others, has these "over reactions" made other "grown ups" on this board act like a spoiled little a$$ toward him.... NO! Dana, I do look forward to when you find what ever it is that you need to find so you can respond with little less BANG. Granted it is educated BANG lol.. but it has been coming on a bit to strong. Feel free to PM me. No harm is intended by my comments and I think you know that. I hesitate in writing this in the open.... but I think it might encourage some of you other friends in here to do a little "PRIVATE" (PM) intervention thing. Speaking personaly, I am truely concerned. Sunwizard and Joat, I commend you for being ADULT thru out this thread! I HOPE OTHERS WILL REFRAIN IN TURNING THIS INTO A TRASH SESSION! Lets please let this little kick in the arse I just did from my soapbox go NO FURTHER in an open forum. If you have something to say do it privately and do it like a friggen ADULT!!! Humbly Climbing down from my soap box now. Sorry for all the missspellings but I think ya'll get my drift. _________________________ If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT; But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well. |
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Fatty,jojo,
Do you really want to jump in with cheap shots at this point? I doubt that there are few folks here that do not already know your personal opinions of me. Sunwizard, From your description it might be..but the description of how you made the mix in #1 soudns much more like and emulsion..which can act that way too. The amount of water removed also seems to indicate it is an emulsion rather than the type of suspended water normally present in wvo. Suspended water I have observed tends to be in much smaller amounts. As I have said before this is useful ifo you are producing but I don't think I would interpret in exactly the same ways you are. Just trying to give you a heads up. If you can find a supply of wvo with suspended water instead of having to attempt to mix it in I think these tests for removing suspended water might be much more valid. Dana दान danalinscott@yahoo.com http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/ VegOil Conversions by Dana Linscott- VO Conversion Consultation for large and small trucks, VO fuel related businesses, and co-generation(power/heat)projects, |
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Thanks for responding in a scientific manner, and so will I. I didn't add any water to #1, but there was some small amount along with the vinegar. I ran it through the pump only to be sure it was thoroughly mixed before taking a sample of it. It did not form an emulsion or any milkyness. And my estimate of amount is very rough, since I captured the output in a quart jar, so 2 oz. visually was not much. I still don't have any settling out in a gallon jug and a pint jar I made of #1, we will see after longer amounts of heated settling if it remains suspended. I can see how from my description you could have thought #1 was a milky emulsion too. The 4 oz. that settled later in #3 after mistwash was more precise since I captured that in a 1/2 pint jar, and it half filled it with water. YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum 95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD wagon Running on 2 tank WVO, 81 Mercedes 300D on V80/D20 blend Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated. |
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Hi Dana and anyone else, I'd like to understand how water become "suspended" in WVO. What is the mechanism, from when it was fresh in the container with no water, to when it's in the fryer, that cause suspended water to be introduced? What size are suspended water particles? Is it pure water? Or does it contain salt/sugar/acid? Or is it water which is trapped in a micro food particle?
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Emulsions are not neccesarily milky in appearance. Vinegar does contian a high percentage of water. IMO Adding vinegar is like adding mostly water.
Canolofunola..this has been discussed before and I am sure most of the info you seek is in the archives. If you want to discuss it again simply start another discussion on that subject and I will try to respond. Dana दान danalinscott@yahoo.com http://vegoilconversions.netfirms.com/ VegOil Conversions by Dana Linscott- VO Conversion Consultation for large and small trucks, VO fuel related businesses, and co-generation(power/heat)projects, |
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Great topic! Going to sound odd coming from me since my last post was a bit off topic butt... this is off topic and VERY deserving of its own thread. While this info is on the board a single thread on the topic would actualy be a good thing IMHO. Why don't you start one so this one can continue on. A link to your new topic would fit well in this one though. oops. looks like me and Dana keep responding to the same thing at the same times LOL. _________________________ If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT; But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well. |
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OK I started a new thread
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/7951033171 I have searched but never found the definitive thread on suspended water. Is it really off topic? We ARE talking about whether the Dieselcraft can remove suspended water or not.
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That is a little arguable and I see your point. And even these two post are off topic too but it's bound to happen a few times. Will make this quick and shut up on it so it won't go OT but for these two post. Maybe I'm being a little over organized? IMHO this is a very very "related" topic but still off topic. Threads are just easier to follow if they keep on about one thing. Sidebars/related topics IMHO should splinter off from the orginal thread. One can pop over when needed to check out the related stuff and then jumps back to orginal thread still rolling on. Anotheway to look at it. It's like when your reading a technical paper on a subject. When you get to a concept you don't understand within the paper, you go to a "refernce book" a dictionary or encyclopedia for example, and you do so off to the side to gather a litte more understanding before going on. Same thing here. Other threads splinter off to furhter expalin/discuss/define further a "related" topic. Just helps keep thought patterns organized thats all. If the author writing a technical paper does choose to include some reference material he does it in seperate place (Appendicies). Here IMHO should follow the same flow format. Writing this way has seem to be a good format of communication that has existed for hundred years and taught from middle school thru university. _________________________ If you believe you can't YOUR RIGHT; But equally so.... if you believe you can, YOUR RIGHT as well. |
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Maybe one of these will help measuring effectivenenss:
http://www.eesiflo.com/products/easz1_01.html Oh! And look at this list of applications...note "water in vegetable oil", "waste vegetable oil" and "Biodiesel" http://www.eesiflo.com/purifier-applications.html |
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I don't see that a discussion of suspended water is anything but very central to this thread. If centrifuges remove all forms of water that would be a good thing to know and I think many people are baffled by the term "suspended water" so a discussion of the concept both here and on another thread devoted to nothing else seems useful.
Craig www.PlantDrive.com 1972 Land Rover Defender/Series Hybrid, 300Tdi, Two-Tank PlantDrive system: HotFox, Vormax, Vegtherm Standard Wife's car: 2001 VW Tdi New Beetle: PlantDrive TwoTank system: Donut tank for start-stop, VegMax, Vegtherm standard, 3-3-port valves, controller |
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Just to throw in my 2 cents. With the exeption of my last rather nasty batch, I have not seen any free water in the centrifuge. All other runs showed no water in the rotor with non-mistwashed oil. So I don't think you can count on consistent centrifugal removal with all oil batches. Perhaps if the water is unusually dirty it aids the removal? However this same batch of mine also strongly resisisted evaporative removal. |
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Especially since Dana makes it sounds like it's impossible to find aside from a pan "test", but even then he says it may not be detectable. So when SunWizard's #1 batch fits the description of oil that probably contains suspended water and it fails the pan "test", but passes after going through the centrifuge, he can claim #1 that it wasn't REALLY suspended water in the first place or 2) it was evaporated therefore leaving contaminants that prevent it from evaporating in the pan "test." This circular logic with no REAL scientific and controlled tests being done is one of the reasons I extended my offer to SunWizard to pay for some tests. We as a community need some results that can be stood upon with some decent certainty that can't be chipped away by doubt and vague unscientific "tests." Thanks, Ray Ackley  |
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Sponsors Home Forums General SVO Discussion Dieselcraft centrifuge works great -My filter and dewater rig
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