you could get a SH diesel block heater as cheaply as a genny. Just bite the bullet and price them up on ebay. Make sure they are complete and working including the wiring loom and all bits needed.

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I might be better off putting a small portable generator in the truck. I'm not sure that even it would start at 0 degF. Phil

sure, why not?

There used to be thermosyphon type block heaters that ran on propane, I have one someplace. It is about the size of the larger diameter portable propane torch propane bottle, the water connections were for heater hoses. It had a resistive igniter for the flame and it's small pilot light sized heating flame burned all the time. This worked fine when it worked but it did not have a true pressure regulator built in, it simply used a VERY TINY orifice fed directly from the high pressure propane bottle, this tiny orifice plugged up easily, I have a couple small cheap propane catalytic heaters that are the same design and have this same problem.

I have not looked up availability of these in years, may no longer be available but something a lot more reliable could be built, a propane torch sized cylinder should run one for a few weeks. I will test this using a propane water heater pilot light and a BBQ propane regulator.

Would it help to not try and heat the entire engine block but just the intake air.

Some of the dodge cummins engines work on this principal, I think.

A few feet of ribbon resistance wire in the intake somewehre close to the cylinder intake port.

Connect the resistnce wire to a switch and add a second battery to the charging system.

Just an idea..

RichC

quote:

Some of the dodge cummins engines work on this principal

Toyota TDIs use the same system.

quote:

Originally posted by RichC:
Would it help to not try and heat the entire engine block but just the intake air.

Some of the dodge cummins engines work on this principal, I think.

A few feet of ribbon resistance wire in the intake somewehre close to the cylinder intake port.

Connect the resistnce wire to a switch and add a second battery to the charging system.

Just an idea..

RichC

I like that...
Sounds like it would do fairly instantaneous heating...
And... when you compress the air to 16:1 or so... it would get significantly hotter (minus, of course, the loss due to contact with the engine). But, it would be heat in the right place.

I wonder if you could couple an air-intake heater with starting your engine on a high blend with a very light fuel (Kerosene/RUG/Butane/etc).

And, maybe also add a fuel pre-heater.

Thank god, I don't live in Alaska where life or death might depend on getting the Diesel fired up.

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Originally posted by VW cat:
I'm really grateful for all the replies and the effort to work out the numbers.I failed to realize the damage done to a battery(s) also. Someone suggested, somewhere, that I might be better off putting a small portable generator in the truck. I'm not sure that even it would start at 0 degF. Phil

Are you talking apples and oranges? Use a gasoline, or LPG portable generator (with starter motor). Should be able to start at least down to 0F (-15C), probably somewhat colder. Don't use a Diesel generator unless you want a second headache.

Another point though... If you want heat... it may not be good to burn a fuel to make kinetic energy (+ waste heat) to generate electricity to generate heat. Direct heating such as burning propane might be more efficient.

At least put in an option to connect your secondary generator's cooling system to the cooling system of your Diesel if you can figure out how to get the correct coolant flow. Perhaps even add a heat exchanger to the exhaust of the generator.

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I don't live in Alaska where life or death might depend on getting the Diesel fired up.

It's not really a big problem in the far north where we routinely deal with that sort of stuff every winter.
A simple 3000BTU naphtha or LPG heater under the engine for a while gets it going in the worst cold. Nine times out of ten there is a plug-in handy for the engine and fuel system preheaters. Real northerners are prepared for the cold, it's our best friend. It keeps out the sun-belt yuppies.

The Cummins heaters in the intake manifold on my 92 Dodge work fine until you get down below freezing, I find it helps to cycle them a couple times once you get down around "0" f, even then it takes a few more compression strokes to light off, maybe 5-6 compression strokes rather than 1-2. Direct injection engines usually start faster than IDI's anyway.

The negative side to these, on my specific vehicle anyway, is that they draw 50 amps each and there are two layers so these computer controlled heaters draw 100 amps total for up to 8 seconds, depends on outside temps. My truck came stock wired for only a single battery and the truck computer cycles the alternator on/off over the first 3 minutes of running to slowly warm up the cold battery, If I don't let the truck warm up for the full 3 minutes the 100 amps drawn by the heaters plus the 500-600 amps drawn by the starter pretty well depletes the battery after 6-7 startups if only driving around town. Once the voltage drops on the battery the starter slows down, this reduces the compression heating enough to require even longer cranking. gets old sitting in a cold idling vehicle even for only 3 minutes.

Many of the older 2 1/2 and 5 ton diesel military trucks have an actual diesel fueled BURNER built directly into there intake manifold (HERE). These are tiny dirty burning versions of a home furnace burner, it shoots FIRE directly INSIDE the intake manifold while the engine is being cranked and for maybe a couple minutes while the engine is first being started up.

This is a picture of a quick little test I did burning a Propane water heater pilot light using a BBQ grill propane pressure regulator, worked just fine. Installing a natural gas orifice inside one of these, plus opening up the combustion air intake (visible hole in side of fitting) would produce about a 3 times larger flame.

propane_pilot_from_bbq_propane_regulator-closer.JPG (45 Kb, 37 downloads)

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Real northerners are prepared for the cold, it's our best friend. It keeps out the sun-belt yuppies.

Aint that the truth!

An update on buying ebasto type heater on ebay is to avoid anything less than five years old. That is when they started keying them to the ECUs in specific vehicles to stop you swapping bits around and they wont work unless they have the right vehicle ECU to talk to...

Fuel powered heaters like previously mentioned are the best bet for regular use, but for ocasional use, running the block heater from an inverter powered by 2 6V golf cart batteries would work. You would of course need to limit your heating time to prevent prematurely killing the batteries. Golf cart batteries are the cheapest deap cycle batteries in this power range.

quote:

Originally posted by Ant:
An update on buying ebasto type heater on ebay is to avoid anything less than five years old. That is when they started keying them to the ECUs in specific vehicles to stop you swapping bits around and they wont work unless they have the right vehicle ECU to talk to...

Okay, so you are saying that new Webastos won't work with any car? If I am understanding what you are saying- the new Webastos have some sort of computer (chip) that will only work if it communicates with the car's computer?

quote:

Many of the older 2 1/2 and 5 ton diesel military trucks have an actual diesel fueled BURNER built directly into there intake manifold (HERE). These are tiny dirty burning versions of a home furnace burner, it shoots FIRE directly INSIDE the intake manifold while the engine is being cranked and for maybe a couple minutes while the engine is first being started up.

Very cool.

Thanks Tim.

I find i need heat to make up for other problems. Aside from fixing low compression(which is last resort), i try to keep my glow plugs in top notch. I run them twice if required. I find a thinner synthetic oil helps. Use the best start tank diesel with no return veggie at all. Use some sort of additive that helps cold weather starting. I sometimes go out at noon which was mentioned before. Close off all around the engine compartment, staying clear of the timing belt and vbelts. bubble wrap works well, keep it away from the battery and other exposed terminals, like the glow plugs. Place a blanket over everything.

Jc whitney used to sell a 12 v electric bed blanket which can be used off a spare battery, turned on at noon, as till noon the motor with a bit of insulation will keep warm enough to start.

On my wife's car, the glow plugs are fed from a spare battery so i get full power to the starter from the starting battery. I use a 1,2 all boat switch to recharge the battery after starting.

I really like the new orbital batteries, they take up less space and can sometimes allow space for the spare battery. they really deliver more ccamps. I wrap the battery with a battery blanket and then insulate it with bubble wrap, being very careful of the terminals. I live off grid and the biggest load i can run is the battery blanket.

most vw block heaters are about 150 to 300 watts depending on the model.

the last resort i keep in my van is a propane roofers torch and barbeque bottle of propane to warm the oil pan. 5 minutes is all that is required to get the coldest motors going. this also warms the whole engine compartment. watch out for the flamable blankets. Avoid this one if you have any leaks. my torch gets put i the van for about 2 months a year and might get used twice. Some say its dangerous, but block heaters and cords cause fires as well. Never leave it unattended. I find it is safer for the engine than using ether on a idi engine.

when i was running my heater hoses for the veg lines i ran one around the battery before insulating it. the mass of the battery coupled with the insulation and heater hose can really help. in the summer i remove it to avoid overheating the battery. insulating the battery not only keeps it warm to help starting but it also allows any waste heat from charging(batteries are about 80 percent efficient) to warm the battery and allow it to take a charge better.

i got a starter rebuilt last year and instead was sent back a different gear reduction starter. It fit my vw, must be for newer models, and it really turns the motor over faster. anyone have any experience using a 2.4 starter from a 5 cyl on a 1.9 engine? Is there a difference there?

Boy, the work and innovation we will do to avoid changing rings to improve compression. Sometimes we just have to bite the bullet and do it.

there are a few more i will remember in january, and will forward.

good luck george

have you checked out frostheater .com. i live in CO and installed one last winter. it hooks up to a plug and heats the coolant which helps the heat in diesels and also speeds the engine heat up time and therefore saves you on diesel costs because you can flip to svo sooner in cooler temps,

good luck finding what you need,

chris

I installed a gear reduction starter motor in my 87 f250 last winter and was amazed at how much faster they spin. There's more info on them at the www.ford-trucks.com pre-powerstroke (pre-97) forum.
The one to get is the later (3rd?) generation short nosed Mitsubishi. It was actually cheaper than the standard gear version.
I remember using my backpacking stove under my 69 VW bus in -30F weather in Utah one winter, while waiting for a good samaritan to give me a pull from my permanently attached tow strap.
Mike

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Okay, so you are saying that new Webastos won't work with any car? If I am understanding what you are saying- the new Webastos have some sort of computer (chip) that will only work if it communicates with the car's computer?

Exactly.

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running the block heater from an inverter powered by 2 6V golf cart batteries would work. You would of course need to limit your heating time to prevent prematurely killing the batteries.

We have talked this one through extensively. Sun wizard has done the numbers for you already. Plenty of other people have chipped in. It won't work for practical needs. there isnt enough energy to be useful. An inverter just adds another layer of ineficiency to the equation.

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Originally posted by bio-me:
I installed a gear reduction starter motor in my 87 f250 last winter and was amazed at how much faster they spin.

I can get 9V armatures to fit some Mercedes and VW starter motors. Makes them spin noticably faster.

Hey, Vegburner

What about my '84 Volvo 240 diesel? Thanks!