I think extrapolating experience with a water jet to possible cavitation inside an IP may not be all that scientific?

Craig

I never said is was scientific... but since the water jet is very high pressure it may be relevent..

What about this...maybe someone has already done it.
To see about the issue of cavitation couldnt you set up a pump with injectors run off of an electric motor?
Hook the injection pump complete with injectors to run continously on an electric motor mounted over a supply of wvo with X amount of water in it...You could heat it to what ever temp you wanted,engine temp,or just leave it at "room" temp and let it run continously for say 90 days.

I figure that letting it run around the clock for that long you would be aproximating 100K miles of use.

I volunteer my self to supply:
the drum to hold the wvo/water/whatever mix,
the electric motor(as long as a 1-2hp motor would turn it) the connection to the Injection pump,and
any necessary electricity to heat the wvo & run the pump along with baby sitting it for what ever length of time we agree on
as well as putting together what ever parts would be needed.

Then we would have our "own study" on what if anything water in your wvo does to your pump & injectors.
ANY TAKERS?
I would be happy to set it up any way that is reasonable and can be agreed on by the masses.

Well i would have thought by now,nearly 6 days later,someone would take me up on the little test i proposed above.
As of this moment i havent heard a peep from anyone.
I still think this is a good way to be as close to real life as possible without actually driving 100k miles.

I don't think it would prove anything not already accepted by the vast majority of diesel owners/mechaincs/technicians.

Does anyone really think a test needs to be run to determine if cavitation occurrs in vo mixed iwth any amount of water?

If so here is a chance to have it proven to you.

I dont' have a pump with a set of injectors to freely offer. Not many folks would. I do have a NIB CAV IP for a Euro-spec Peugeot, but no injectors or lines for connecting them. I hesitate to offer it because of the value ($1200 or so to replace), but it's also not doing me any good gathering dust, in the wrong country. Since it's not representative of any common IP in the 'States, would it even provide any meaningful data?
I'd suggest that a better IP would be from a GM 6.2, being among the most common. VW might be another good choice.

quote:

Originally posted by danalinscott:
I don't think it would prove anything not already accepted by the vast majority of diesel owners/mechaincs/technicians.

Does anyone really think a test needs to be run to determine if cavitation occurrs in vo mixed iwth any amount of water?

If so here is a chance to have it proven to you.

Sure, I'd love to see a good experiment like that. Manufacturers tend to err on the side of caution, whether the unfamiliar is actually dangerous or not, and pass that on to mechanics and technicians who accept it wholesale.

I have a set of injectors from a Mercedes OM352 that are working but slightly out of tolerance that I can offer. However, they are designed for a low pressure IP, and may not be able to provide meaningful data. Is cavitation more likely to occur under 30kpsi than under 12kpsi?

I will chip in for testing...

Ran into this ( www.testing-expo.com/europe/05txeu_conf/pres/macdonald.pdf ) study the other day had a quick scan and noticed some stuff about cavitation of gas in fuel injectors thought it may be of interest, not sure how relevent.

Here are some of the things i have been thinking that i would like to see in this test.

1)I think a tear down of which ever injecton pump is chosen at the 1/2 way point or some other logical point would be a good idea.
2)I also agree with johno that some type of common pump would be best Ford,Chevy,VW...personally i am partial to Ford.
(and i wouldnt expect you Johno or anyone to donate a $1200 pump)
I think you may be able to find some cheap ones on ebay....I saw a recently (with just a few hundred miles on it) rebuilt ford go for 50 bux.
So with a little looking i think they can be found cheap.
3)My preference for fuel would be a blend 80/20 or 90/10 with minimal heat


Any one else have any "test" ideas?

BK Hoskens Thanks....
Vegburner.... Can get that link to open.

Hi Wannabe,
Sorry I didn't respond to your test proposal... you are right someone should have responded to your offer... I would propose using single cylinder pumps for testing... they opertate just like the multicylinder IP's but are easily disassembled for inspection... several could be tested side by side... with different WVO... one with suspended water.. one with dewatered, one with an emulsion and then maybe test comparing different micron filtering...
There is also the thought that we are all testing... and all we need to do is document our different experiences...

quote:

Originally posted by Fattywagonman:
I would propose using single cylinder pumps for testing... they opertate just like the multicylinder IP's but are easily disassembled for inspection......

If I understand correctly cavitation occurs when pressures within the IP are pretty significant and when water is present of course. IP Pressures simular to what automotive engines and the like run on. Would these single cylinder engines your thinking of John be opperating at simular pressures within their IP's?

In the test another thing you might consider to creat a better apples to apples comparison is make sure the engines run in a manner simular to auto engines; as in there is acceleration and deaccelerations occuring simular to a what a auto engine goes thru.

Most all DI injectors have injection pressures about 3-6K PSI... newer HPCR engines can have up to 26K PSI... IDI benz use 1500 PSI.. injector plungers pressurize the fuel and then as the helix ezposes the port the pressure drops very quickly...I would think cavitation is more likely to occour as injection pressures increase... due to the larger and rapid pressure differential that happens when the plunger moves up and down ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fattywagonman:
....I would think cavitation is more likely to occour as injection pressures increase... due to the larger and rapid pressure differential that happens when the plunger moves up and down ...

Sounds about right to me but I don't know that much and it's been awhile since I read up on it. A review of the "cavitation revisited" thread should give you more details on where/when/how cavitation occurs. It is here:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1596.../403108739#403108739
I plan to read it again myself. Looking at it right now and I see some sources listed

My thoughts.

quote:

I think you may be able to find some cheap ones on ebay....I saw a recently (with just a few hundred miles on it) rebuilt ford go for 50 bux

Any IP you use in the test would have to be new/benchmarked prior to the test. Using a $50 IP would almost assure you of beginning with a damaged or worn out IP. Any test results would be of questionable value.

quote:

I would propose using single cylinder pumps for testing... they opertate just like the multicylinder IP's but are easily disassembled for inspection..

This may be the cheapest way to do this.
How expensive are these in new condition?

quote:

This may be the cheapest way to do this.
How expensive are these in new condition?

I'll check with the guys who are supplying me petteroids in india... I think an IP and injector can be purchased for less than $20-40 per set...

Fat John, are you importing listeroids/petteroids? Can I get one or 2?

yo Fatty... tell us about the petteroid stash in India.I'm in Miami and hurricane season is 2 weeks away! Don't want ti hijack the thread so maybe we can start a new one

peace
Ed

That's what I was thinking, too, Mr. E.

If I understand the TEQC website correctly the Purinox blended fuels will be the only dino available during the summer in the 11 counties surrounding Houston. I will try to find the info and post a link tomorrow after work.

TNX,

Als