i am looking to run petroleum and or synthetic lube oil... and plant oil based lubes in the distant future.
it has been suggested that bypass oil filtration will remove moisture
from engine oil supposedly eliminating acidification of lubeoil, increased
lifespan of the bearings, besides its obvious duty of removing small
particulate matter.

has anyone tried, noticed, that bypass filtration especially the kind that utilizes
toilet paper has any effect on removing oil molecules or particles that has been
contaminated by piston ring blowby? also is there some kind of filter media or
impregantion/treatment that could aid the process if it s in fact useful?

ty
john

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 1.6D MKI GTI,

In a word, no. No filter can discriminate between lubrication oil and biodiesel/svo that has blown past the rings. Nor can they discriminate between oil and polymers (many of the oil additives that make "multi-grade" oil are polymers themselves). Diesel fuel in engine oil gets hot enough to evaporate, but biodiesel and svo need much higher temperatures to do the same, so they accumulate faster than diesel, even in normal engine service. The solution is to change the oil frequently enough to avoid problems. In the case of my Mazda (which has a stock normal filter, and a stock bypass filter, btw) that means changing oil at 3333 mile intervals, more or less. By 5000 miles the oil is noticably thicker, due to polymerization of biodiesel/svo dilution from normal blowby. Synthetic oil does not prevent polymerization, nor any other additives I've heard of.

All good filters remove particles, from blowby or any other sources. Franz and similar "toilet-paper" filters do work as polishing filters, but have one known problem - after a while they develop channels that allow unfiltered oil to pass through. I quit using them because of that problem. ANY filter works as a polishing filter, as long as you pass the same liquid through it over and over. Dedicated bypass filters have no internal pressure relief/bypass valve, unlike primary oil filters. If they're not changed frequently enough, and if they get clogged, they can "blow out" their elements (usually paper), which not only allows un-re-filtered oil to return to the engine (not a terrible thing), but also a bunch of shredded filter paper, which on rare occasions will clog the oil pump pickup. That will wreck an engine, so take the manufacturer's recommended filter change interval seriously.

My recommendation is to use decent oil meant for diesel engines, and change it at the normal interval used in the old days - 3500 miles in the case of small engines, and perhaps longer miles in the case of big engines with large oil sumps (it takes longer to contaminate 11 quarts than 5).

To check for oil thickening - put some freshly drained oil in a pop bottle. Put an identical amount of the same kind of oil, but new, in another bottle. Turn them both upside-down, and observe how quickly the oil flows. Also note how long it takes to drain back from the sides after they're put back upright. It's normal for used diesel oil to be opaque black, and to totally obscure the sides of the pop bottle for a while. My Mazda oil at 3333 miles is opaque black, and takes a little bit longer to run than fresh oil. At 5000 miles it runs like warm honey, while the fresh oil is much runnier. The difference was frightening enough to convince me to change it more often.

You are welcome to try this test; into a sturdy pot, dump a quart of your favorite motor oil. Add a tablespoon of fresh vegetable oil. Heat to 450 degF (about the hottest that oil gets in the hottest parts of an engine) for an hour. Try not to burn down the house. Let it cool and note what happens. When I tried this, the oil got much thicker.

I've heard that various anti-oxidants help prevent this, but haven't tried any.

Cheers,
JohnO

The centrifugal oil cleaners that some trucks use seem to be able to get a fair bit of the soot.

Sorry, I looked this up, and my previous statement was incorrect. Elsbett only recommends PLANTOMOT.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 240volvo,

Plantomot is a vegetable lube oil which supposedly prevents polymerization. I have yet to find it available in the USA. Does anybody know where it can be ordered over here?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hheynow:
Plantomot is a vegetable lube oil which supposedly prevents polymerization. QUOTE]


I just don;t see how this is possible given how crankcase oil polymerization occurrs. I have looked at claims of this oil or that oil being less succeptible to polymerization but never any science provided on how those claims might be ..well.. more than just advertising claims.

Johns advice of simply changing oil before it becomes critically contaminated with VO would seem to be the best advice possible that is backed by physics/chemistry. No matter which oil you use it will become contaminated by VO if you are using VO as fuel. Whether it is expensive oil or just basics diesel rated oil does not matter as far as I can determine. Once the level of VO in it reaches a certain point it the VO present will polymerize due to the O2 and heat crankcase oil is subjected to.

You can of course lower the rate at which VO accumulates in crankcase oil by making sure you have little to no blowby. Don't use VO in a cold engine as this is where blwby is the greatest since the pistons are still not fully expanded to seal the bore. And don't ignore deteriorating compression values as these indicate that thre is excessive blowby even at full engine temp.

The main problem of polymerized lube oil is that if it reaches a sufficient level it can allow the oil to fully "set" as a non flowable gel when the engine cools. When this occurrs the lubrication your engine needs will simply not be there upon the following startup.

Goodbye bearings...etc.

There is however a second danger.
Before the oil reaches that critical VO saturation point bits fo polymerized VO may coat the oil filter. At that point the bypass valve will opem to prevent lube starvation. But of course all of the crap suspended in the oil that your filter is supposed to prevent from passing through engines bearings/etc. will be passing through your engines bearings/etc. causing acellerated wear.

I don't think there is a knowledgable VO converter that will disagree with my statement that Johns advice is the best advice. If you want to spend more use synthetic oil or Plantmot....but don't do that expecting it to safely lengthen your oil change interval.

Today I read an SAE report on Oil contamination, polymerization and additives, from 1985. It did not address veg fuels at all - the polymerization concern was with conventional fossil-oil lubricants in diesel engine service. There may be a grain of truth in the "synthetic oils last longer in SVO service" rumor, but just barely. I'll try to summarize from memory:

As an engine runs and works, the oil is exposed to blowby and fuel dilution. The fuel residue that makes it into the crankcase is oxidized, making it acidic. The oil itself is exposed to oxygen, driving oxidation processes in the oil that also create acids. Within the oil are additives that act as alkaline agents, neutralizing the acids to create salts that are insoluble and settle out as sludge, or coallesce into particles that the filter traps. Without these additives that maintain a desired pH, the bearings are attacked and corrode. The length of time the oil is "good" is determined by the ability to continue neutralizing acids. When the additives are used up, the oil becomes acidic and bearing wear increases. The oil also begins to polymerize, though much slower than Veg oils. Multi-weight oils already contain polymers, which need to resist further polymerization under acidic conditions. The anti-oxidants and acid neutralizers must have been key developments before multi-weight oils became practical, but I digress.

Synthetic oils are advertised as containing longer lived additive packages. If true, then they should be able to resist acid build-up longer than conventional oils, regardless of source. Perhaps the Plantmot oil contains a more powerful additive package. That would be nice.

You may ask "what's acidity got to do with polymerization?" Polymerization activity increases with acidity. It also increases with oxydation. If oxidized blowby products are quickly neutralized by the additive package, then there is less opportunity for any veg oil present to oxidize as well, thereby resisting polymerization a little longer. This may not mean that a synthetic oil advertised as "good for 10,000 miles" will last for that long, but it might mean that it lasts significantly longer than the 3300 miles at which I'm presently changing my oil.

The article raised the consideration of testing oil for acid and alkaline value, but considered such a test unreasonable, since it requires a titration. For the average driver, performing a titration is akin to brain surgery, and not something to try at home. For a biodiesel homebrewer, which many SVOers began as, performing a titration would be a trivial test, taking just a couple minutes. The article gave no details of how such a titration might be performed, other than to briefly describe a generic test (disolve in a suitable solvent and add an acid or alkali), sad to say, but it would certainly be easy to start titrating my oil periodically, using Phenolpthalein, or Phenol red, or one of the other common indicators. As a starting point, it might be worth trying to determine the pH of new oil, and identify an indicator to closely match that value. I could then simply keep track of the titration changes with mileage, until the next oil change.

It's also worth keeping in mind that information from 1985 may be out of date, and oil additive and wear information from those days may not apply to modern engines and lubricants. I'd take it with a grain of salt, but also hope to learn something useful from thinking about it.

Anyone ever heard of an oil titration test kit? Maybe it's the next big marketable idea! "extend the life of your oil indefinitely, with our amazing Synthesized Naturopathic Alkaline Kinimatic Effects Oxidation Index Laboratory kit".

Cheers,
JohnO
Acronym Creation Department (hint)

BTW, a different report showed the distillation curves for #2 diesel and biodiesel. The diesel had a nice gentle curve beginning at about 140C, ramping up asymptoticly to around 400 or so. The biodiesel began abrupty at nearly 600C and went nearly vertical, being entirely vaporized before reaching 650. No wonder is persists in crankcase oil, while the low-volatility parts of diesel don't.

quote:

Originally posted by johno:
In a word, no. No filter can discriminate between lubrication oil and biodiesel/svo that has blown past the rings.

ty johno,
sorry for not being clear on this point. i was suggesting that the polymerization might be minimized
by using a large mass filter - toilet paper which according to all mfgs that make them
effectively reduces/eliminates acidification of lub eoil in CI as well as SI engines, by removing
water in the lube oil which is supposed to be one the main constituents in acidification.
blackstone lube oil analysis confirms this.
back to my original point. it has been suggested that heat, water/humidity, oxygen and contact with some ferrous metals as well as copper causes polymerization.
most of these aspects cannot be controlled but keeping moisture/water might help.
one is to go on longer drives to evaporate moisture the other might be the toilet roll - in a world of high tech solutions!?

that concept connects me to another much ignored post of mine:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...59605551&m=124103541 - a standpipe for UFO
with an water absorbant

as well as posts in this thread: http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...5551/m/621103321/p/1

now there is a nagging question that i share with others and it prevails. how is it possible
that 2 dissimilar fluids such as 30W and water can coexist in fluffy filter media such as wood pulp.
black oil being the dominant fluid by magnitudes, would coat each fibre of wood. once saturated
how can can the media possibly absorb something as different as water? is is possible because of 40-50psi generated by the oil pump?

is the same phenomenon possible in a standpipe @ <4 PSI, with an oil that is to some extend miscible with water?

quote:

In the case of my Mazda (which has a stock normal filter, and a stock bypass filter, btw)

what kind of filter is it?

quote:

My recommendation is to use decent oil meant for diesel engines

once again from what i have read anti- acid forming additives are the main difference between
CI and SI lube oil.

quote:

Originally posted by johno:
other than to briefly describe a generic test

= blackstone labs

>what kind of filter is it?<
Napa 1839. In appearance it's a normal oil filter, but has no bypass valve visible. Possibly has finer filtering element, or more area. It's slightly smaller than the main filter, but then again it doesn't have to contain the spring-loaded bypass valve mechanism.

>...generic test<
I did not mean to imply that samples can't be sent to a lab. I meant some kind of test that the vehicle driver would be able to do on the spot, or a mechanic could do in the garage. The authors of the paper obviously believed such a test would be beyond the average ability of such people. That's why I raised the idea that biodieselers would find such a test pretty easy, if it's like a normal oil titration.

I assume most people realize that water vapor is a significant portion of combustion gases. Those are one of the major sources for water in the oil. There may be a close parallel to used cooking oil - the water is retained in particles, food particles in the case of WVO, soot particles in the case of motor oil. If the oil is hot enough, the vapor will exit the engine quickly, minimizing the exposure time. There is also the opportunity for any OH groups in the motor oil molecules to acidify (biodiesel chemistry relies on it). One strategy used by motor oil companies it to include in the additive package something benign to stick to the OH groups. Those "somethings" may wear off, which limits the life of the motor oil package. Using a water-trapping filter is a good idea, and cellulose fibers have been proven to work, but do not believe everythign advertised about toilet-paper filters. I still have several gathering dust if you want one to play with. Yes they work pretty well as a polishing filter. Yes they will capture and hold onto water, soap and glycerin. Sorry to say they also develop channels that permit unfiltered liquid to pass through, and shed cellulose fibers, requiring a down-stream filter (!)(the claim that they will filter ink is BS). If a water molecules contacts a cellulose fiber, it can be absorbed. There are many opportunities for this to happen in a roll of toilet paper. The oil doesn't seem to blind or saturate the cellulose surface to water. The toilet paperr noticably swells up when it absorbs water and other stuff, but not when simply soaked with oil. I would never use a toilet paper roll as a filter on a vehicle, but they can be useful for polish-filtering your fuel in storage. The flow rate needs to be very slow, and the pressure very low (I used a Facet "cube" fuel pump).

This brings to mind the option of reprocessing drained crankcase oil - rather than trying to process it while it's still in the engine, drain it and deacidify/filter/polish it at home. It would be a safer experiment than leaving it in you engine, and would permit sending samples to Blackstone or any other lab before returning it to the crankcase for more miles.

Cheers,
JohnO